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3 hours ago, dman115 said:

Once again, ASU with an impressive line-up.  I stated this last year and was "educated" on it, but I still think they always seem to underperform based on the talent they have in their line-up...hope that isn't the case this coming year.  I mostly see BigTen wrestling where I live but always liked ASU and their wrestlers.  Their campus was always fun to visit doing recruiting trips for work!!  ;)

"They" isn't fair.  Now, if "they" meant a guy or 2, that would be closer to reality.  But, it depends on what your expectations were relative to what they should have been.  For one, Anthony Valencia. He was FLAT OUT ranked too high out of High School, based almost solely on his freestyle results.  The problem with that was it didn't account for his lack of a gas tank and a clear aversion to tough mat wrestling.  With that in mind, his results pretty much aligned with his style.  He was explosive enough that he could beat top guys if he hit a big move early and held on late.  Otherwise, he would get exposed by the most physical and/or well conditioned wrestlers.  Other than him, Norfleet is probably the most notable.  But, his write up would almost mirror A.V.'s weaknesses.  He would break in the 3rd(if not much earlier) and break on the mat against the toughest riders.  

Here are the results under Zeke per season:

His first year was 2014-2015 and he didn't exactly inherit a full cupboard.  However, they did well with Blake Stauffer and he took 4th at a pretty tough weight.  Pierce also qualified as a freshman(admittedly not doing much after).

2015-2016:  Although this was his 1st year with his recruits on the roster, he pretty much shirted everyone but Tanner Hall.  Even then, he managed to qualify Brady(1-2), Mathers(0-2), Kraus(1-2), Stauffer(3-2, R12), DaSilveira(1-2) and Hall(3-2, R12).  Pretty strong year for what he started with.  Still, they placed 33rd as a team.

2016-2017:  His first year with 7 of his own guys in the line-up(They did lose Lance Benick, who simply wasn't cut out for the DI rigors).  ASU wins the Pac12 for the 1st time since 2006, with 6 of those 7 and 7 total making the Finals, with 5 Champs.  The following 5 qualified for NCAA's(with results in parenthesis):  Maruca(2-2), Shields(1-2), A. Valencia(2-2, R12), Z. Valencia(5-1, 3rd) and Hall(6-1, 3rd).  Kramer and Peterson both lost close matches in the Pac 12 Finals, but 2nd was not an AQ slot at those weights.  Their other starters were Rico, Villareal(one definite surprise underachiever for what I expected) and Harris.  They placed 14th as a team.

2017-2018:  They would repeat as Pac 12 Champs adding 2 big transfers in Millhof and Tsirtsis.  They would again have 7 Finalists with 5 Champs.  NCAA Results(8NQ's):  Millhof(2-2), Naser(0-2), Tsirtsis(4-2, 7th), Shields(5-2, 7th), A. Valencia(2-2), Z Valencia(5-0, 1st), Norfleet(0-2) and Hall(2-2).  The other starters were Villareal(struggled badly again) and Belshay.  They placed 10th as a team.

2018-2019:  They would take 2nd to Stanford at Pac 12's.  A. Valencia and Hall redshirted.  NCAA Results(5 NQ's):  Millhof(injury withrew), Maruca(1-2), Pagdilio(4-2, 7th), Shields(3-3, 6th) and Z. Valencia(5-0, 1st).  The other starters were Kline, Crooks, Peterson, Harris and Daniel.  They placed 12th as a team.

2019-2020:  They dominated Pac 12's for their 3rd win in 6 years under Zeke.  They would have 6 Finalist and 5 Champs even with Z. Valencia suspended.  NCAA Results(6 NQ's):  Courtney(9 seed), Teemer(9 seed), Shields(6 seed), A. Valencia(8 seed), Norfleet(9 seed) and Hall(4 seed). The other starters were Kramer, Crooks and Maruca. Covid shut down NCAA's that year, but ASU was set up very nice to place high.

2020-2021:  They dominated Pac 12's again for their 4th win in 7 years.  They would, yet again, have 6 Finalists and 5 Champs, with A. Valencia upsetting Griffith.  NCAA Results(8 NQ's): Courtney(4-1, 2nd), McGee(5-2, 6th), Crooks(1-2), Teemer(6-2, 4th), A. Valencia(3-3, 8th), Munoz(1-2), Norfleet(2-2, R12) and Schultz(5-2, 4th).  The other starters were Chlebove and Belshay.  They placed 4th as a team.

2021-2022:  They would squeak out Pac 12's(.5 pts), winning for the 3rd straight year and 5th win out of Zeke's 8 years as Head Coach.  They would, yet again have 6 Finalists, but this time all 6 were Champs.  NCAA Results(7 NQ's):  Courtney(3-3, 6th), McGee(4-2, 4th), Parco(3-3, 8th), Teemer(3-3, 6th), A. Valencia(2-2), Norfleet(2-2) and Schultz(4-1, 2nd).  The other starters were Ramos, Rochford and Nummer.  They placed 4th as a team.

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Couple things I've noticed on Wrestlestat (that only an obsessed wrestlestat follower would notice):

141: Anthony Echemendia has been removed from the transfer portal as it appears he is no longer associated with Ohio State

285: Yaraslau Slavikouski has been removed from the transfer portal and has been restored as normal starter on the Harvard roster (without the transfer indicator)

Edited by flyingcement

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12 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

Couple things I've noticed on Wrestlestat (that only an obsessed wrestlestat follower would notice):

141: Anthony Echemendia has been removed from the transfer portal is it appears he is not longer associated with Ohio State

285: Yaraslau Slavikouski has been removed from the transfer portal and has been restored as normal starter on the Harvard roster (with the transfer indicator)

I wonder where Ech went. Maybe he joined the Army? 

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1 minute ago, TripNSweep said:

I wonder where Ech went. Maybe he joined the Army? 

They have him listed as unattached.  Sounds like he has a fair amount going on in his life - maybe wrestling isn't his top priority at the moment 

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10 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

They have him listed as unattached.  Sounds like he has a fair amount going on in his life - maybe wrestling isn't his top priority at the moment 

He should go D2 or NAIA. He would be just fine there and probably have fewer distractions. I don't think he's married anymore. 

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38 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

 

2021-2022:  They would squeak out Pac 12's(.5 pts), winning for the 3rd straight year and 5th win out of Zeke's 8 years as Head Coach.  They would, yet again have 6 Finalists, but this time all 6 were Champs.  NCAA Results(7 NQ's):  Courtney(3-3, 6th), McGee(4-2, 4th), Parco(3-3, 8th), Teemer(3-3, 6th), A. Valencia(2-2), Norfleet(2-2) and Schultz(4-1, 2nd).  The other starters were Ramos, Rochford and Nummer.  They placed 4th as a team.

Another way of looking at it:  Courtney seeded #4, finished 6th.  McGee #4/4th.  Parco #5/8th.  Teemer #3/6th.  Valencia #18/NP.  Norfleet #16/NP.  Schultz #2/2nd. 

So, two finished at seed, two under, and two non-seeded non-placed.  Your call as to whether that is underperforming.

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40 minutes ago, klehner said:

Another way of looking at it:  Courtney seeded #4, finished 6th.  McGee #4/4th.  Parco #5/8th.  Teemer #3/6th.  Valencia #18/NP.  Norfleet #16/NP.  Schultz #2/2nd. 

So, two finished at seed, two under, and two non-seeded non-placed.  Your call as to whether that is underperforming.

Its blind ignorance to use ONLY seed to determine performance.  Due to a rather "loose" Pac 12 schedule, along with a very shortened schedule.  They benefited receiving very solid seeds.  Even then, the team took FRICKING 4th.  The only teams ahead of them were PSU, Michigan and Iowa.  They placed ahead of every team they should have and actually gave Iowa a run for 3rd.

Realistically looking at seeds and placement:

Courtney, although seeded 4th, was argued HEAVILY against being top 4 at the weight on this exact board.  Still, 6th from the 4 seed is just stupid to call a significant underperformance. He still AA'd and made the semis.  That doesn't even account for the fact that NO ONE would have given him ANY chance to beat Suriano, Glory or Vito.

McGee, for the sake of accuracy, was actually the 3 seed taking 4th.  Still, his losses were to fricking Fix and DeSanto.  Neither of whom had he ever beat.  

Parco was a pretty loose 5 seed.  Still, me made it to the quarterfinals EASILY and only lost in OT to Sasso(the 4 seed).  His other loss was to the 6th seeded Millner.  Still, yet again, he AA'd!

Teemer admittedly didn't look good from the semis on.  Not sure if Deakin broke him a bit.

Valencia- So you know, the 18th seed is only slotted to win 1 match.   Chalk wins per seed=25-32=0, 17-24=1, 13-16=2, 8-12=3(only 8th placing), 6-7=4, 5=5, 4=4, 3=5, 2=4 and 1=5.  So, by your logic, Valencia overperformed by 100%....

Norfleet-went 2-2 from the 16 seed.  Chalk.

Schultz took 2nd in a STACKED weight.  1st off EVERYONE on this site knew he got a great break with seeding.  Nearly all argued that the top 4 guys were all in the B1G.  Still, he beat Parris and placed ahead of Cass and Kerkvliet.  On top of all that, he gave Steveson his most competitive match of the last 2 seasons.

If you look at that and see underperformance, you don't know much about the DI NCAA Tournament...

 

Edited by MSU158

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4 hours ago, flyingcement said:

He did announce he was in the portal on Twitter.  He also insinuated he would be at 174 and looking at Big 10 schools (not sure how flexible he is on either)

Askren mentioned on FRL today he was "trying to get into ASU but having academic issues."  But didn't seem sure what weight he'd go

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Its blind ignorance to use ONLY seed to determine performance.  Due to a rather "loose" Pac 12 schedule, along with a very shortened schedule.  They benefited receiving very solid seeds.  Even then, the team took FRICKING 4th.  The only teams ahead of them were PSU, Michigan and Iowa.  They placed ahead of every team they should have and actually gave Iowa a run for 3rd.

Realistically looking at seeds and placement:

Courtney, although seeded 4th, was argued HEAVILY against being top 4 at the weight on this exact board.  Still, 6th from the 4 seed is just stupid to call a significant underperformance. He still AA'd and made the semis.  That doesn't even account for the fact that NO ONE would have given him ANY chance to beat Suriano, Glory or Vito.

McGee, for the sake of accuracy, was actually the 3 seed taking 4th.  Still, his losses were to fricking Fix and DeSanto.  Neither of whom had he ever beat.  

Parco was a pretty loose 5 seed.  Still, me made it to the quarterfinals EASILY and only lost in OT to Sasso(the 4 seed).  His other loss was to the 6th seeded Millner.  Still, yet again, he AA'd!

Teemer admittedly didn't look good from the semis on.  Not sure if Deakin broke him a bit.

Valencia- So you know, the 18th seed is only slotted to win 1 match.   Chalk wins per seed=25-32=0, 17-24=1, 13-16=2, 8-12=3(only 8th placing), 6-7=4, 5=5, 4=4, 3=5, 2=4 and 1=5.  So, by your logic, Valencia overperformed by 100%....

Norfleet-went 2-2 from the 16 seed.  Chalk.

Schultz took 2nd in a STACKED weight.  1st off EVERYONE on this site knew he got a great break with seeding.  Nearly all argued that the top 4 guys were all in the B1G.  Still, he beat Parris and placed ahead of Cass and Kerkvliet.  On top of all that, he gave Steveson his most competitive match of the last 2 seasons.

If you look at that and see underperformance, you don't know much about the DI NCAA Tournament...

 

Someone is taking this quite personally.

What part of "Your call as to whether that is underperforming."  says to you that I see underperformance?

(hint:  I couldn't care less about whether ASU underperforms)

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Two things:

If Monday is having issues academically getting in the ASU, will that not also disclude him from all the B1G programs he listed?

Of ASU: Their best outing was with no Ivies.  That is, or should be, a sort of asterisk.  Not the season by any means.  It was a season.  When referencing NCAA results for comparisons to their own prior and results since it defp should be taken into account.

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2 hours ago, klehner said:

Someone is taking this quite personally.

What part of "Your call as to whether that is underperforming."  says to you that I see underperformance?

(hint:  I couldn't care less about whether ASU underperforms)

Wasn’t calling you out specifically. Just that tired old argument. Have seen it on here several times and it admittedly isn’t my favorite…

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Two things:

If Monday is having issues academically getting in the ASU, will that not also disclude him from all the B1G programs he listed?

Of ASU: Their best outing was with no Ivies.  That is, or should be, a sort of asterisk.  Not the season by any means.  It was a season.  When referencing NCAA results for comparisons to their own prior and results since it defp should be taken into account.

ASU took 4th again last season. Ivies wrestled…

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24 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Their team was better than the year before.

Huh?  So you disregard ASU, by using results from 2 years ago but ignore ASU's most recent results because they were a better team?  Hell, I am not sure you can even argue they were better, because:

1.)They had 8 NQ's in 2021 and 7 in 2022.

1.)A. Valencia showed some serious HEW.

2.)Courtney had Suriano, Glory and Fix replace Lee.

3.)Parco minimally outscored Crooks and Munoz.

4.)Teemer wasn't outscoring his prior performance and didn't.

5.)Norfleet was the exact same guy.

6.)Schultz benefited from a GREAT draw and some key injuries.

Out of the entire ASU roster, I would say McGee was better than the year before.  After that,  Schultz may have been a tad more refined, but I still think he would have lost to a healthy Cass and/or Kerk.

Simple truth, Zeke is getting results.  He still has a ways to go to truly challenge PSU, Iowa, tOSU and OkState as a perennial trophy contender, but he is getting close and is probably closer than any other team on a consistent basis.  Even Michigan has lost so much I am not sure when/if they get back into that conversation...

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4 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Huh?  So you disregard ASU, by using results from 2 years ago but ignore ASU's most recent results because they were a better team?  Hell, I am not sure you can even argue they were better, because:

1.)They had 8 NQ's in 2021 and 7 in 2022.

1.)A. Valencia showed some serious HEW.

2.)Courtney had Suriano, Glory and Fix replace Lee.

3.)Parco minimally outscored Crooks and Munoz.

4.)Teemer wasn't outscoring his prior performance and didn't.

5.)Norfleet was the exact same guy.

6.)Schultz benefited from a GREAT draw and some key injuries.

Out of the entire ASU roster, I would say McGee was better than the year before.  After that,  Schultz may have been a tad more refined, but I still think he would have lost to a healthy Cass and/or Kerk.

Simple truth, Zeke is getting results.  He still has a ways to go to truly challenge PSU, Iowa, tOSU and OkState as a perennial trophy contender, but he is getting close and is probably closer than any other team on a consistent basis.  Even Michigan has lost so much I am not sure when/if they get back into that conversation...

Your argument counters your proof?

I said they were better.  Aside for two weights they were.  Being as 6 or 7 of them were the same exact wrestler, then they were better.  Unless the wrestlers regressed, which is contradictory to your 'Zeke is getting results' statement.

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20 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Your argument counters your proof?

I said they were better.  Aside for two weights they were.  Being as 6 or 7 of them were the same exact wrestler, then they were better.  Unless the wrestlers regressed, which is contradictory to your 'Zeke is getting results' statement.

Brent Metcalf was his best his sophomore year. That doesn’t mean he and Brands didn’t get results after. Point being, they were very good BOTH years. 

The simple truth is ASU took 4th 2 years in a row.  No matter how you slice it, that IS getting results for basically every team but PSU or Iowa.  Even tOSU and OkState slip out of the top 10 here and there. On top of that, they are solidly positioned as the #2 team this year behind a beast in PSU.

Zeke’s personality may rub some people the wrong way.  But, he recruits like a boss and is a great, technical coach.  Losing Pendleton admittedly hurt.  But, if he actually does bring Joseph over, and holds onto him, they may even get stronger…

 

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With Negron transferring to ASU lat 157 is Teemer going up?  Can't imagine why he would transfer to be on the bench. Negron isn't a world beater but it's better than the holes they have had. 

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With Negron transferring to ASU lat 157 is Teemer going up?  Can't imagine why he would transfer to be on the bench. Negron isn't a world beater but it's better than the holes they have had. 

Speculation on BWI is he can’t make 157 and can’t beat Facundo.


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2 hours ago, Idaho said:

That makes sense…..I’m guessing the ASU fans who create the narratives of Finesilver, Cenzo and Griffith are disappointed  

Cenzo still in the works. I think it's kind of like when Mark Perry first went to ASU. It was speculated for months before it was official. 

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Anyone ready to admit that Monday was not actually going to be a gamechanger at 174 yet?
Seems a few people were very high on that...

Who thought he was a game changer? He wasn’t going to put up finalist-level points at any weight.


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1 hour ago, Le duke said:


Who thought he was a game changer? He wasn’t going to put up finalist-level points at any weight.


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There was a lot of folks in this thread clamoring he would be.

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