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kionga

What is Next for Michigan State?

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The Spartans had a disappointing NCAA tournament.  Five wrestlers, 4.0 total points, and no all-Americans.  The only wrestler to win a contested match was Cam Caffey, who won twice.  They have had only one AA in the Roger Chandler era, RayVon Foley placed 7th in 2019.  Foley went 1-2 at NCAA this year, with the one win via medical forfeit.

Caffey and Foley were both graduate students.  Are they coming back?  What new recruits are coming to East Lansing that fans should expect to be successful at the national level?  Why is Michigan State (and Michigan to a certain extent) losing out on the top local talent --- Alex Facundo (Penn State),  Josh Barr (Penn State), Manny Rojas (Iowa State), Casey Swiderski (Iowa State)?

Are there any signs that MSU can up their program to say top 20 nationally?

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14 minutes ago, kionga said:

The Spartans had a disappointing NCAA tournament.  Five wrestlers, 4.0 total points, and no all-Americans.  The only wrestler to win a contested match was Cam Caffey, who won twice.  They have had only one AA in the Roger Chandler era, RayVon Foley placed 7th in 2019.  Foley went 1-2 at NCAA this year, with the one win via medical forfeit.

Caffey and Foley were both graduate students.  Are they coming back?  What new recruits are coming to East Lansing that fans should expect to be successful at the national level?  Why is Michigan State (and Michigan to a certain extent) losing out on the top local talent --- Alex Facundo (Penn State),  Josh Barr (Penn State), Manny Rojas (Iowa State), Casey Swiderski (Iowa State)?

Are there any signs that MSU can up their program to say top 20 nationally?

MSU simply doesn't have anything to offer over ANY of the other B1G schools. They practice in a room that looks like a basement, right off where the everyday students exercise in the Intramural building.  If I were showing recruits around during a scheduled visit, I would conveniently forget to even show them the facilities related to wrestling.  Just get them there during the warmer season and don't let them see just how gigantic the campus(it is bigger than many decent sized cities) is and how hard it is to get across in the snow if you have classes scheduled on opposite ends.  

On top of that, they are an AFTERTHOUGHT for the Athletic Department that is still reeling from the Nasser scandal and has yet to form an identity.  Just stay under the radar, graduate your kids and you will stay the coaches.  Ask for anything more and your request will fall on deaf ears.

Simply put, if they land any recruits they will almost always be kids that really want to wrestle in the B1G, but aren't quite good enough to draw the attention of the other B1G schools or the 2nd tier regional kids.

Now, this isn't to say Roger and Chris haven't really tried to change the culture and create a winning philosophy, but there is only so much they can do with the recruits they land and the limited resources they have to deal with.

Sadly, as long as they aren't the very bottom of the B1G, they are doing about as well as you should reasonably expect...

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17 minutes ago, kionga said:

The Spartans had a disappointing NCAA tournament.  Five wrestlers, 4.0 total points, and no all-Americans.  The only wrestler to win a contested match was Cam Caffey, who won twice.  They have had only one AA in the Roger Chandler era, RayVon Foley placed 7th in 2019.  Foley went 1-2 at NCAA this year, with the one win via medical forfeit.

Caffey and Foley were both graduate students.  Are they coming back?  What new recruits are coming to East Lansing that fans should expect to be successful at the national level?  Why is Michigan State (and Michigan to a certain extent) losing out on the top local talent --- Alex Facundo (Penn State),  Josh Barr (Penn State), Manny Rojas (Iowa State), Casey Swiderski (Iowa State)?

Are there any signs that MSU can up their program to say top 20 nationally?

This is a familiar case in study, men fleeing the state, ignoring the State schools to pack themselves into the top programs. Thus giving theses top programs a lot to work with and create dynasties.  Conversely in the BIG ,Michigan state, Purdue, Illinois to an extent, Indiana, Maryland remain neutered. If they can’t attract the instate elite, why would any elite from other states want to come in. This has gotten more traction in the last 10- 12 years. 

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Case in point-Max Dean

If Roger couldn't land him out of the transfer portal, with all the connections he has to the family, what chance does MSU really have at landing top recruits?  It just isn't going to happen without wholesale changes at the Athletic Department level.  The only way even the best new coach possible could really help that program would be at the CEO level.  Fundraising and convincing the Athletic Department to overhaul the facilities and maximize resources.  You would need to make MSU viewer friendly and a destination hotspot.  With the current financial landscape nightmare, again due to Nasser, the AD isn't spending 1 extra red cent...

Edited by MSU158

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7 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Case in point-Gabe Dean

If Roger couldn't land him out of the transfer portal, with all the connections he has to the family, what chance does MSU really have at landing top recruits?  It just isn't going to happen without wholesale changes at the Athletic Department level.  The only way even the best new coach possible could really help that program would be at the CEO level.  Fundraising and convincing the Athletic Department to overhaul the facilities and maximize resources.  You would need to make MSU viewer friendly and a destination hotspot.  With the current financial landscape nightmare, again due to Nasser, the AD isn't spending 1 extra red cent...

Max?

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54 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Case in point-Max Dean

If Roger couldn't land him out of the transfer portal, with all the connections he has to the family, what chance does MSU really have at landing top recruits?  It just isn't going to happen without wholesale changes at the Athletic Department level.  The only way even the best new coach possible could really help that program would be at the CEO level.  Fundraising and convincing the Athletic Department to overhaul the facilities and maximize resources.  You would need to make MSU viewer friendly and a destination hotspot.  With the current financial landscape nightmare, again due to Nasser, the AD isn't spending 1 extra red cent...

Maybe bring in GABE Dean as a coach-- head coach or at least as an assistant.

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A few things that I believe have honestly hindered them the last couple of years:

-Weight management

-Individual priorities

-Facilities

-Recruitment

 

Weight Management:

I believe they put a focus on letting the guys wrestle where they want and not where they have peak performance capality.  Examples are Caffey and Foley.  Foley is good enough that he is going to beat big cutters off the scale, but the further from weigh ins you get the worse he will do.  I am thinking Scuffle finals against the Nagao(sp) kid.  Body of work dictates he should have smoked him.  It got further from the scale and he lost what one of his major advantages is.  Caffey was capable of winning 197 because he strong enough, flexible enough, has the tank, and the speed to beat anyone at 197 thisnlast season.  He just doesn't have the size or frame to put it together fot entire tournaments, though.  Malczewski also does not have the power to not get worn out in those tournaments.  Hamden at 133 would have yielded similar results to Lujan at 125.  Caffey was not winning 184, but the likelihood of him taking 3rd-6th was much higher than 197.

 

Individual Priorities

-Omania clearly does not want to wrestle folkstyle when he steps on the mat.  Several other gents either lacked the discipline in eagerness to do what was better for the team recenty, too.  I am thinking Atienza to 149 as well as Enriquez to 141.  So this can go hand in hand with weight mamagement, I believe.

 

Facilities

-Already beaten to death above

 

Recruitment

-Already mentioned above, as well.  I will add that we have had some top level D1 prospects come through and both CMU and MSU are missing on them, not just MSU.  ISU and Penn State are just much more attractive, as far as peak potential goes over in-state options not named UofM.

Edited by nhs67

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Ugh, my bad!  Would really have loved to have Gabe there though!

At least I didn't type Dave!

I was really hoping we were going to see Austin Boone head to MSU when he left Penn state but all my hope was for naught.

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2 hours ago, kionga said:

The Spartans had a disappointing NCAA tournament.  Five wrestlers, 4.0 total points, and no all-Americans.  The only wrestler to win a contested match was Cam Caffey, who won twice.  They have had only one AA in the Roger Chandler era, RayVon Foley placed 7th in 2019.  Foley went 1-2 at NCAA this year, with the one win via medical forfeit.

Caffey and Foley were both graduate students.  Are they coming back?  What new recruits are coming to East Lansing that fans should expect to be successful at the national level?  Why is Michigan State (and Michigan to a certain extent) losing out on the top local talent --- Alex Facundo (Penn State),  Josh Barr (Penn State), Manny Rojas (Iowa State), Casey Swiderski (Iowa State)?

Are there any signs that MSU can up their program to say top 20 nationally?

They didn't score well at the national tournament, but for a program like MSU that's only part of the story. Their dual meet record of 10-4 is the program's best mark since 1996, and they legitimately were ranked in the top 20 in most national dual meet rankings all season. At one point of the season they beat Purdue just a weak after Purdue upset Nebraska. Yes they ran out of steam a bit and guys did not peak for individuals like you'd hope, and their top end guys didn't meet expectations, but evaluating the program holistically from top to bottom I saw a lot things to be encouraged by this season.

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35 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Maybe bring in GABE Dean as a coach-- head coach or at least as an assistant.

He lives in Lowell now running a successful business.  He would have a minimum of two (2) hours of commute per day.  It makes very little sense unless it was for a CEO type head coaching gig, which would be irresponsible of Dean and MSU to consider.

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36 minutes ago, lurk_nowitzki said:

They didn't score well at the national tournament, but for a program like MSU that's only part of the story. Their dual meet record of 10-4 is the program's best mark since 1996, and they legitimately were ranked in the top 20 in most national dual meet rankings all season. At one point of the season they beat Purdue just a weak after Purdue upset Nebraska. Yes they ran out of steam a bit and guys did not peak for individuals like you'd hope, and their top end guys didn't meet expectations, but evaluating the program holistically from top to bottom I saw a lot things to be encouraged by this season.

Completely agree

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1 hour ago, lurk_nowitzki said:

They didn't score well at the national tournament, but for a program like MSU that's only part of the story. Their dual meet record of 10-4 is the program's best mark since 1996, and they legitimately were ranked in the top 20 in most national dual meet rankings all season. At one point of the season they beat Purdue just a weak after Purdue upset Nebraska. Yes they ran out of steam a bit and guys did not peak for individuals like you'd hope, and their top end guys didn't meet expectations, but evaluating the program holistically from top to bottom I saw a lot things to be encouraged by this season.

To be clear, I don't think Roger and Chris are doing a bad job for what they have to work with.  I am just being real.  This is about what you can expect going forward.  A guy or 2 maybe sneaking on the podium from time to time, with a decent dual team, showing heart while usually wrestling outmatched against B1G opponents.  

In today's landscape, recruiting is crucial and depth in the room is paramount to success.  I don't see a way MSU creates either and they are simply too limited to expect much more than we are currently getting...

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A couple big things they need to change. 

1. Many of there wrestlers wrestled to many times. 3 tournament is to many, (MSU Open, Navy Classic and Southern scuffle) 

2. Need a better weight training and weight management.

3.They need to get a some of the top in state kids. 

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1 hour ago, Michigan wrestling said:

A couple big things they need to change. 

1. Many of there wrestlers wrestled to many times. 3 tournament is to many, (MSU Open, Navy Classic and Southern scuffle) 

2. Need a better weight training and weight management.

3.They need to get a some of the top in state kids. 

I think the three tournaments they did was fine.  A big home one and a big away one early.  Dust off the cobwebs.  The Scuffle is needed to keep them honest on weights.  They need the multiple days in a real scenario.

I agree with 2 and 3 entirely.  Maybe ThugMassa G gets Massa's Maniacs going again and we can get some of that central Michigan talent flowing through there.

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7 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I was really hoping we were going to see Austin Boone head to MSU when he left Penn state but all my hope was for naught.

 

you may still end up getting him, not sure that he will crack the lineup at Oklahoma State.  Voinovich is the front runner for 149 if G'fellar doesn't come back for one more year 

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6 hours ago, MSU158 said:

To be clear, I don't think Roger and Chris are doing a bad job for what they have to work with.  I am just being real.  This is about what you can expect going forward.  A guy or 2 maybe sneaking on the podium from time to time, with a decent dual team, showing heart while usually wrestling outmatched against B1G opponents.  

In today's landscape, recruiting is crucial and depth in the room is paramount to success.  I don't see a way MSU creates either and they are simply too limited to expect much more than we are currently getting...

I think this same picture has been painted for the Indiana and Purdue programs. Maybe Maryland thrown in there. No deep rooms no elite wrestlers.  Getting to the bottom of the middle of the Big ten conference and you get maxed out. I just don’t know if a change in coaching at this time, for any of the mentioned programs, will make any difference at all. 

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9 hours ago, lurk_nowitzki said:

They didn't score well at the national tournament, but for a program like MSU that's only part of the story. Their dual meet record of 10-4 is the program's best mark since 1996, and they legitimately were ranked in the top 20 in most national dual meet rankings all season. At one point of the season they beat Purdue just a weak after Purdue upset Nebraska. Yes they ran out of steam a bit and guys did not peak for individuals like you'd hope, and their top end guys didn't meet expectations, but evaluating the program holistically from top to bottom I saw a lot things to be encouraged by this season.

I see your 10-4, but in fairness, Olivet and Baldwin-Wallace? Bucknell and Gardner-Webb are a next step up, but not if you're in the Big Ten. I'm a MD guy, but will be the first to say that UMD and Indiana dont count as legit dual wins. Those guys should be proud of their Purdue and Rutgers wins. 

MSU traditionally underperforms, and has for many years. I know nothing about the education or student experience. I hope these young men come out ready to crush their post-ncaa life.

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