Jump to content
kionga

What is Next for Michigan State?

Recommended Posts

Caffey has had a solid career but I expected him to be a multiple time AA. He showed a lot of potential early in his career but never seemed to put it all together at tournament time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Cowboy08 said:

 

you may still end up getting him, not sure that he will crack the lineup at Oklahoma State.  Voinovich is the front runner for 149 if G'fellar doesn't come back for one more year 

From what I have heard Boone is not enrolled at Ok State, back home. So if he's already gone thru PSU and OK St, seems like their is a problem here. At this point not sure if MSU would even want him.  

Edited by Michigan wrestling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/30/2022 at 12:23 PM, Michigan wrestling said:

From what I have heard Boone is not enrolled at Ok State, back home. So if he's already gone thru PSU and OK St, seems like their is a problem here. At this point not sure if MSU would even want him.  

 

if that's true then then this is exactly what MSU needs, to take advantage of top tier recruits who choose better programs at first and flame out.  A 5x Michigan State champion was never going to Michigan State, now maybe they can grab him

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

why would you hire the assistant if the head coach sucked....

A mixture of inexpensive, convenience and laziness.  Plus, its a hire that didn't rock the boat.  Easy transition where the Athletic Department really didn't have to do anything or change anything.  An afterthought sport remained an afterthought.

Again, for what they have to work with Roger and Chris are doing about as much as you can rightly expect.  It would take big names to do better and once they interviewed and saw what they had to work with they would run away from that job faster than Speedy Gonzales!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

A mixture of inexpensive, convenience and laziness.  Plus, its a hire that didn't rock the boat.  Easy transition where the Athletic Department really didn't have to do anything or change anything.  An afterthought sport remained an afterthought.

Again, for what they have to work with Roger and Chris are doing about as much as you can rightly expect.  It would take big names to do better and once they interviewed and saw what they had to work with they would run away from that job faster than Speedy Gonzales!

I think  this mirrors Indiana University, except iu does have a new arena for matches 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Their entire team faded terribly down the stretch.  Foley, Saldate, Caffey, losing (or almost losing) to guys they beat handily earlier in the season.  So... what should that be attributed to?  

If I were an MSU fan I would hope it's "too many matches," which could be valid, and is an easy change. Teams finishing in the top 10 averaged in the mid 20's for matches wrestled.  MSU had multiple guys at 35+.  

Alternatively, they're getting outcoached, not preparing their guys correctly for the post season, and either regressing or improving less than other teams throughout the course of the year.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

why would you hire the assistant if the head coach sucked....

Michigan State cannot afford to rock the boat with any hire in any sport for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time. What happened was every bit on par with the Sandusky/PSU scandal and the reality is that if either was in any other conference then each would have received the death penalty that is so very much deserved. MSU (and PSU) was able to pay their way out of a death penalty but they will pay repercussions for a long time in subtle and not-so-subtle ways for what was allowed to happen such as a low-tier wrestling coach hire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Michigan State cannot afford to rock the boat with any hire in any sport for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time. What happened was every bit on par with the Sandusky/PSU scandal and the reality is that if either was in any other conference then each would have received the death penalty that is so very much deserved. MSU (and PSU) was able to pay their way out of a death penalty but they will pay repercussions for a long time in subtle and not-so-subtle ways for what was allowed to happen such as a low-tier wrestling coach hire.

MSU death penalty? For what part?  The ENTIRE Athletic Department?  Let's be clear,  the allegations are a complete hodgepodge mess between USA Women's Gymnastics, Holt High School, family friends, several others loosely or anonymously included and finally MSU.  Unlike Sandusky, this was spread over so many different venues and MSU took the FULL BRUNT of it.  Should USA Women's Gymnastics have been banned as well?

To be clear, EVERY SINGLE PERSON that truly knew what was going on should have been punished to the maximum amount possible.  But, with Women's Gymnastics being fringe of fringe and knowing how the MSU Athletic Department was and has been run/ran, I legitimately believe VERY FEW people had any true info whether or not ANYTHING was going on.

In fact, the only other person I think MAY have had inside knowledge, or at least enough that she should have been truly concerned was Kathie Klages.  Even John Geddert(who ran the big club outside of MSU for gymnasts) was in the middle of a couple situations that became "he said, she said" and eventually cleared Nassar.

So, to be crystal clear, Kathie Klages defended Nassar down to the bitter end.  She even said she would send her own children to him with no issues.  When you have a female coach of the exact team defending the doctor, until you have indisputable evidence, what do you do as an Athletic Department, let alone the entire University?  In most cases, you would feel compelled to believe that coach without any actual evidence.

Now, with all that said, MSU took a GIANT beating.  Should they have?  Probably.  But, what part exactly deserved the death penalty?  What moving parts are still there that could have actually known anything let alone actually did?  Then, what do you ban?  Women's gymnastics?  In the case of Sandusky, are you saying all of their Athletic Department or just Football?

The biggest part of this whole thing is what punishment fits the crime.  Obviously both Sandusky and Nassar were the true perpetrators and they got exactly what they deserved.  After that, how do you prove who knew what and who/what to punish and then how?

  In the case of Sandusky and PSU, with it being Football, I could see more people being directly involved in the Athletic Department and having more access to the information.  But, at MSU, I am telling you I would be surprised if anyone in any power in their Athletic Department had ANY information they could actually use to sanction Nassar in any way, until 2016.

Again, who/what exactly do you give the death penalty to and why???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chandler is an extremely high character, nice guy. That being said, I would like to see a regime change. The word around the coaches water cooler is that he is doing a good job, but the results speak for themself. 

MSU has scholarships. They can do a LOT better than they have been. They need young blood in there. What is Nick Simmons doing these days? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Their entire team faded terribly down the stretch.  Foley, Saldate, Caffey, losing (or almost losing) to guys they beat handily earlier in the season.  So... what should that be attributed to?  

If I were an MSU fan I would hope it's "too many matches," which could be valid, and is an easy change. Teams finishing in the top 10 averaged in the mid 20's for matches wrestled.  MSU had multiple guys at 35+.  

Alternatively, they're getting outcoached, not preparing their guys correctly for the post season, and either regressing or improving less than other teams throughout the course of the year.   

Cornell averaged 30 matches per NCAA qualifier (nine wrestlers) with guys with 38, 33, 32, 32, 31, and 30 matches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TheHeel said:

Chandler is an extremely high character, nice guy. That being said, I would like to see a regime change. The word around the coaches water cooler is that he is doing a good job, but the results speak for themself. 

MSU has scholarships. They can do a LOT better than they have been. They need young blood in there. What is Nick Simmons doing these days? 

Not remotely as easy as that.  If you want to give your opinion, go actually take a visit.  Talk to the Athletic Department, if you can actually get anyone to talk to you.  Tour the "facilities".   Compare those to every other B1G and then compare them to every other DI.

As a comparison, Iowa just raised 26 million or so to build a facility to TRY to keep near the top in the B1G.  MSU Wrestling couldn't raise that much money by 2050 if they started today...

 

Edited to add:  In regards to Nick, there is ZERO chance he would be hired with his very public incident at Oregon State back in the day.  MSU is trying to stay squeaky clean, while trying to slowly rebuild the football program.  With the exception of basketball, the other sports are simply Title IX compliance and are told to make zero waves and graduate as many as possible.  That is IT!

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

MSU death penalty? For what part?  The ENTIRE Athletic Department?  Let's be clear,  the allegations are a complete hodgepodge mess between USA Women's Gymnastics, Holt High School, family friends, several others loosely or anonymously included and finally MSU.  Unlike Sandusky, this was spread over so many different venues and MSU took the FULL BRUNT of it.  Should USA Women's Gymnastics have been banned as well?

To be clear, EVERY SINGLE PERSON that truly knew what was going on should have been punished to the maximum amount possible.  But, with Women's Gymnastics being fringe of fringe and knowing how the MSU Athletic Department was and has been run/ran, I legitimately believe VERY FEW people had any true info whether or not ANYTHING was going on.

In fact, the only other person I think MAY have had inside knowledge, or at least enough that she should have been truly concerned was Kathie Klages.  Even John Geddert(who ran the big club outside of MSU for gymnasts) was in the middle of a couple situations that became "he said, she said" and eventually cleared Nassar.

So, to be crystal clear, Kathie Klages defended Nassar down to the bitter end.  She even said she would send her own children to him with no issues.  When you have a female coach of the exact team defending the doctor, until you have indisputable evidence, what do you do as an Athletic Department, let alone the entire University?  In most cases, you would feel compelled to believe that coach without any actual evidence.

Now, with all that said, MSU took a GIANT beating.  Should they have?  Probably.  But, what part exactly deserved the death penalty?  What moving parts are still there that could have actually known anything let alone actually did?  Then, what do you ban?  Women's gymnastics?  In the case of Sandusky, are you saying all of their Athletic Department or just Football?

The biggest part of this whole thing is what punishment fits the crime.  Obviously both Sandusky and Nassar were the true perpetrators and they got exactly what they deserved.  After that, how do you prove who knew what and who/what to punish and then how?

  In the case of Sandusky and PSU, with it being Football, I could see more people being directly involved in the Athletic Department and having more access to the information.  But, at MSU, I am telling you I would be surprised if anyone in any power in their Athletic Department had ANY information they could actually use to sanction Nassar in any way, until 2016.

Again, who/what exactly do you give the death penalty to and why???

It sounds like you and I are pretty well aligned on most parts except the ending. Both were abhorrent situations that led to outcomes that in my opinion should have established precedent rather than a hand-slap relatively speaking (again we are talking damage done to individuals versus damage incurred by USAWG and MSU, or by PSU). Would innocent people have been caught up and paid an unfair price? Yes. But that is the price of doing the right thing. It also does not sit well with me that Penn State has moved on so totally that it is an afterthought. But again, I'm not a judge jury or executioner I'm just an idiot with a keyboard and an opinion.

Edited by bnwtwg
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

It sounds like you and I are pretty well aligned on most parts except the ending. Both were abhorrent situations that led to outcomes that in my opinion should have established precedent rather than a hand-slap relatively speaking (again we are talking damage done to individuals versus damage incurred by USAWG and MSU, or by PSU). Would innocent people have been caught up and paid an unfair price? Yes. But that is the price of doing the right thing. It also does not sit well with me that Penn State has moved on so totally that it is an afterthought. But again, I'm not a judge jury or executioner I'm just an idiot with a keyboard and an opinion.

The biggest difference is PSU as a University and, particularly, their Athletic Department was too big to fail. Short of forcing them to shut down, they were still too big of a brand name generating too much revenue to fail. 
 

Meanwhile, MSU BARELY survived this. Trust me, the pay outs crippled MSU. They fought so hard to earn a “highly selective” designation in regards to acceptance. Then, the very first year after the incident went public, they had the lowest applications in a very long time and accepted the most students they had over that same time period. They needed the revenue that badly, they leveraged their future for the now. 
 

On top of that, MSU is only still alive because this didn’t happen inside the actual football program. They were still obviously effected, but could rebuild quickly without any direct stigma. If they had the Sandusky type stigma attached to football, I honestly am not sure the MSU Athletic Department would ever have recovered…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Penn State survived just fine and it *was* within the football program. B1G money talks because it is the most prestigious conference and that's just how the world works. Regardless, the Chandler hire is part of the "recovery" plan - Michigan State lifer, upstanding character, willing to play within the ruleset provided by administrative leadership, will not rock the boat with recruits or athletes, etc. When considering the state of affairs, that was, is, and will be the best play for some time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Not remotely as easy as that.  If you want to give your opinion, go actually take a visit.  Talk to the Athletic Department, if you can actually get anyone to talk to you.  Tour the "facilities".   Compare those to every other B1G and then compare them to every other DI.

As a comparison, Iowa just raised 26 million or so to build a facility to TRY to keep near the top in the B1G.  MSU Wrestling couldn't raise that much money by 2050 if they started today...

 

Edited to add:  In regards to Nick, there is ZERO chance he would be hired with his very public incident at Oregon State back in the day.  MSU is trying to stay squeaky clean, while trying to slowly rebuild the football program.  With the exception of basketball, the other sports are simply Title IX compliance and are told to make zero waves and graduate as many as possible.  That is IT!

I know Simmons isn't going to get the job. However, all the other things you list are excuses and a good coach could overcome all of that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TheHeel said:

I know Simmons isn't going to get the job. However, all the other things you list are excuses and a good coach could overcome all of that. 

LMFAO.  Gotta love that mindset.  The fact you keep missing is NO good coach would even want to try.  If, you were actually that good, you would RUN from that type of situation.  Unless you are a flat out sadist, you just don't put yourself in that situation to start with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Cowboy08 said:

 

if that's true then then this is exactly what MSU needs, to take advantage of top tier recruits who choose better programs at first and flame out.  A 5x Michigan State champion was never going to Michigan State, now maybe they can grab him

Well, Boone is not in the Transfer Portal and still on OK ST roster. So not sure what's up with him, but zero matches in 2 year at PSU and OK State is a bit worrisome.  

 

3 hours ago, klehner said:

Cornell averaged 30 matches per NCAA qualifier (nine wrestlers) with guys with 38, 33, 32, 32, 31, and 30 matches.

MSU had a great B10 tournament last year in a short year, not as good NCAA's. This year, B10 was not good, along with NCAA's.  Cornell may not be the rule, they may be the exception.  

Edited by Michigan wrestling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Meanwhile, MSU BARELY survived this. Trust me, the pay outs crippled MSU. They fought so hard to earn a “highly selective” designation in regards to acceptance. Then, the very first year after the incident went public, they had the lowest applications in a very long time and accepted the most students they had over that same time period. They needed the revenue that badly, they leveraged their future for the now. 

MSU barely survived?  Come on, that's not even close to true. The settlement payments didn't cripple them.  More like nicked them up a bit.

Yes they took an application hit when this broke, but they've more than recovered since that time, and saw record applications this past year.  Meanwhile, student quality metrics have remained stable (test scores, GPA), so have they really leveraged their future?  In 2022 they're wealthier than ever, have an established strong management and governance structure, and have effectively navigated through the pandemic.  

Whatever their problems are, they don't relate to the financial standing of the university as a whole.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

MSU barely survived?  Come on, that's not even close to true. The settlement payments didn't cripple them.  More like nicked them up a bit.

Yes they took an application hit when this broke, but they've more than recovered since that time, and saw record applications this past year.  Meanwhile, student quality metrics have remained stable (test scores, GPA), so have they really leveraged their future?  In 2022 they're wealthier than ever, have an established strong management and governance structure, and have effectively navigated through the pandemic.  

Whatever their problems are, they don't relate to the financial standing of the university as a whole.  

Really? You realize they are, and have been for years in the top 5 for average enrollment?  When you accept that many students your applications will still be ridiculously high, even with the negative impact. It is a giant campus, with enormous overhead.  Yes, they have state funding to help bail them out, but their coffers were essentially bled dry.  

You don't go from your best application to enrollment ratio to your worst in 1 year without taking a MAJOR economic blow.  You don't pay out $880,000,000.00 dollars without getting smashed across the board.  The Athletic Department is STILL a giant disaster and the "prestige" they were trying to build as a highly selective school is now gone.

To be clear, MSU has been "Big Brothered" to death in regards to UofM in more than football.  It is about image and NOT being the "other" school in the State.  Did I mean the school wouldn't survive?  No.  Cripples can still live a VERY long life.  They just don't have the QUALITY of life that they would have had before the accident...

 

Edited to add:  I also STRONGLY disagree with the "established strong management and governance structure."  I have yet to see any evidence that they have all the right moving parts moving in the right direction with the right people moving those parts.  Time will tell, but higher tuition and a giant acceptance ratio is more of a bandaid than a long term fix...

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MSU158 said:

LMFAO.  Gotta love that mindset.  The fact you keep missing is NO good coach would even want to try.  If, you were actually that good, you would RUN from that type of situation.  Unless you are a flat out sadist, you just don't put yourself in that situation to start with.

This is the mentality that holds the program back. The program of no expectations. They have 9.9 scholarships, no? They offer the chance to compete in Big 10, no? The right person would have no problem building a program in East Lansing. It just isn't Chandler. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MSU158 said:

LMFAO.  Gotta love that mindset.  The fact you keep missing is NO good coach would even want to try.  If, you were actually that good, you would RUN from that type of situation.  Unless you are a flat out sadist, you just don't put yourself in that situation to start with.

Masochist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...