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What is Next for Michigan State?

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1 hour ago, TheHeel said:

This is the mentality that holds the program back. The program of no expectations. They have 9.9 scholarships, no? They offer the chance to compete in Big 10, no? The right person would have no problem building a program in East Lansing. It just isn't Chandler. 

How much time have you spent in East Lansing? Specifically the wrestling room and the athletic department?  How familiar are you with the current environment?  Make a few phone calls or send some emails. 
 

I will give you a fricking hint. They DON’T care and aren’t looking for the type of coach you think could pull that off. Guess what that means? No coach with the ability to do what you think they could would go there knowing they would get no support and get paid less on top of it than a myriad of places they could go instead. 
 

it isn’t about the mentality it is about firsthand knowledge. Let’s be clear even Cael Sanderson left ISU to go to PSU? Why? Considerably more resources and ISU dwarves MSU in that department. 
 

No offense, but you have no clue what you are talking about in this situation. 

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17 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Really? You realize they are, and have been for years in the top 5 for average enrollment?  When you accept that many students your applications will still be ridiculously high, even with the negative impact. It is a giant campus, with enormous overhead.  Yes, they have state funding to help bail them out, but their coffers were essentially bled dry.  

You don't go from your best application to enrollment ratio to your worst in 1 year without taking a MAJOR economic blow.  You don't pay out $880,000,000.00 dollars without getting smashed across the board.  The Athletic Department is STILL a giant disaster and the "prestige" they were trying to build as a highly selective school is now gone.

To be clear, MSU has been "Big Brothered" to death in regards to UofM in more than football.  It is about image and NOT being the "other" school in the State.  Did I mean the school wouldn't survive?  No.  Cripples can still live a VERY long life.  They just don't have the QUALITY of life that they would have had before the accident...

 

Edited to add:  I also STRONGLY disagree with the "established strong management and governance structure."  I have yet to see any evidence that they have all the right moving parts moving in the right direction with the right people moving those parts.  Time will tell, but higher tuition and a giant acceptance ratio is more of a bandaid than a long term fix...

Their athletic department may very well be a disaster.  I'll trust you on that front.  At the very least, they haven't shown much interest in improving the wrestling program.

That being said, and this isn't intended to offend or start an argument, but your perception of what's happening there financially just isn't correct.  

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9 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Their athletic department may very well be a disaster.  I'll trust you on that front.  At the very least, they haven't shown much interest in improving the wrestling program.

That being said, and this isn't intended to offend or start an argument, but your perception of what's happening there financially just isn't correct.  

Actually, @MSU158 is correct in this regard.

Just because MSU has a crapload of money from being in the B1G, doesn't mean they are willing to spend a dime to improve the many situations that would require one or two or hundrends of dimes.  Wrestling isn't and never will be a priority to them.  Quite simple.

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2 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Their athletic department may very well be a disaster.  I'll trust you on that front.  At the very least, they haven't shown much interest in improving the wrestling program.

That being said, and this isn't intended to offend or start an argument, but your perception of what's happening there financially just isn't correct.  

Not offended nor is it an argument.  It is just a conversation on a topic I follow very closely.  Did I ever say they were broke?  They are a major state university with a giant enrollment and considerable state funding.  They weren't going to get bankrupted over this.  However, when I say crippled, I mean they lost so many things they were working so hard on to become considerably more prestigious.

Simply put, it was a setback of epic proportions.  Yes, they are too big to truly fail financially, but this cost them considerably more than the flat $880,000,000.00 in payouts and I am not even sure how you truly quantify that actual number.  On top of that, like I said above, the name was heavily tarnished and they leveraged so many positives to try to make that money back as quickly as possible.

I am admittedly a bit touchy on this topic, because the deeds of so few(unlike PSU, I am not sure who at MSU can truly even be remotely considered culpable other than Nassar and Klages) did SO MUCH damage to the ENTIRE University.  Now, I am not making light in any way.  What Nassar did was beyond terrible and he deserved to be burnt at the stake and the victims needed closure and something to help the move forward mentally and physically.  However, nothing was EVER proven that anyone else at MSU did anything wrong other than possibly the ignorance of Klages.  2 people does not make a conspiracy and an ignorant female gymnastics coach could have very well kept EVERYTHING of any substance from going anywhere above her.

It is just a situation that sucks on so many levels and so many more people were considerably punished by those reparations, deserved or not...

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2 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Not offended nor is it an argument.  It is just a conversation on a topic I follow very closely.  Did I ever say they were broke?  They are a major state university with a giant enrollment and considerable state funding.  They weren't going to get bankrupted over this.  However, when I say crippled, I mean they lost so many things they were working so hard on to become considerably more prestigious.

Simply put, it was a setback of epic proportions.  Yes, they are too big to truly fail financially, but this cost them considerably more than the flat $880,000,000.00 in payouts and I am not even sure how you truly quantify that actual number.  On top of that, like I said above, the name was heavily tarnished and they leveraged so many positives to try to make that money back as quickly as possible.

I am admittedly a bit touchy on this topic, because the deeds of so few(unlike PSU, I am not sure who at MSU can truly even be remotely considered culpable other than Nassar and Klages) did SO MUCH damage to the ENTIRE University.  Now, I am not making light in any way.  What Nassar did was beyond terrible and he deserved to be burnt at the stake and the victims needed closure and something to help the move forward mentally and physically.  However, nothing was EVER proven that anyone else at MSU did anything wrong other than possibly the ignorance of Klages.  2 people does not make a conspiracy and an ignorant female gymnastics coach could have very well kept EVERYTHING of any substance from going anywhere above her.

It is just a situation that sucks on so many levels and so many more people were considerably punished by those reparations, deserved or not...

(1) MSU didn't have pay the full $800mm (bond funded $500mm). 

(2) Their unrestricted cash and investment balance grew more in FY21 than the entire amount of the settlements.  

(3) COVID had a much greater impact on student demand metrics than the Nassar scandal ever did.  This is a national trend that has impacted all but the very most selective institutions.  

(4) MSU is not trying to grow enrollment--their long-term goal is roughly in line with where they are today.

(5) Both rating agencies that rate MSU (Moody's, S&P) note improvement in management and governance, and strong financial management, as strengths.  S&P even revised their outlook to stable (from negative) as a result, despite the fact that they just borrowed $500MM for long-term capital projects in March.  

(6) Their reliance on state funding is minimal compared to the vast majority of their peers (<15% total revenues). On top of that, MSU has next to zero pension exposure, also rare among peers.  

(7) FY21 was their strongest operating year since at least 2015.  

 

Again, I'm not talking about the athletic department or its budget--that's a separate issue.  I'm also not saying the settlements did not have a negative impact.  The reputational damage is real, but they're on the other side of it now.  

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11 hours ago, MSU158 said:

How much time have you spent in East Lansing? Specifically the wrestling room and the athletic department?  How familiar are you with the current environment?  Make a few phone calls or send some emails. 
 

I will give you a fricking hint. They DON’T care and aren’t looking for the type of coach you think could pull that off. Guess what that means? No coach with the ability to do what you think they could would go there knowing they would get no support and get paid less on top of it than a myriad of places they could go instead. 
 

it isn’t about the mentality it is about firsthand knowledge. Let’s be clear even Cael Sanderson left ISU to go to PSU? Why? Considerably more resources and ISU dwarves MSU in that department. 
 

No offense, but you have no clue what you are talking about in this situation. 

I've got close connections there. That is all I will say. Your mentality is common amongst the MSU wrestling program and until that built in excuse crap is flushed down the toilet, MSU will never crawl out. Stop making excuses. Its wrestling. 

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28 minutes ago, TheHeel said:

I've got close connections there. That is all I will say. Your mentality is common amongst the MSU wrestling program and until that built in excuse crap is flushed down the toilet, MSU will never crawl out. Stop making excuses. Its wrestling. 

LMFAO.  Close connections, huh?  Have you ever been in the wrestling room?  How about just IM West itself?  Have you ever had discussions with ANYONE from the Athletic Department?  Have you had multiple email addresses blocked just for politely trying to have a conversation about improving wrestling?(Granted, this was several years ago when Minkel essentially gave up at the end).

Also, my "excuse" is NOT common.  Dale Anderson, with way more influence than I ever had, tried for YEARS to make an impact.  He got NOWHERE.

Let me ask you this.  How in the HELL does MSU wrestling improve when the Athletic Deparment ITSELF won't even look for the coach YOU believe could fix the program?  For thinking you KNOW how to fix it, I would love to know how you even get that right coach in place when the Athletic Department is the damn entity responsible for hiring the damn coach in the 1st place.

Hell, even if you put it back on Roger and Chris, what exactly are they supposed to do when the Athletic Department flat out tells them to LEAVE THEM ALONE and just graduate your student athletes.  The simple truth is WITHOUT considerable support from the Athletic Department there is only so much you can do, UNLESS you are a name like Stanford, with a coach like Koll and huge money donors to supplement.  Even then, that movement only happened due to the publicity from cancelling so may sports on top of wrestling.  Even with all that, the jury is still out with what Koll can do there and that doesn't even factor in the built in recruiting power Stanford draws compared to MSU.

 

Look, I WANT MSU to succeed.  I would love to see a top 3 finish again.  One of the most memorable years of my life.  But, I am also realistic.  You would need the perfect storm of events to happen for MSU to make any substantial improvement and that would almost certainly take years for the Athletic Department to fully recover from Nassar and possibly consider supporting its fringe programs...

Edited by MSU158

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