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Jimmy Cinnabon

Years where best dual team didn't win NCAAs?

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I assume the desire to crown a separate dual team champ is because people believe the current way of crowning a team champion is not accurate...

Curious if people can post some examples of years where the team that won NCAAs wouldn't have been the best dual team?

It seems to me, in an overwhelming majority of cases, the team that wins NCAAs would also be the best dual team.

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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i can't think of examples for certain, but take this year

penn states 5 studs match up with another team with good guys at those weights, they can't get pins.

now the 5 penn state guys who aren't studs get beat and two by majors.

the other team wins.

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While I am sure you are correct that the majority of the time the same team would win the NCAAs and the dual team in the same year but here are a few examples:

2011 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2013 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2015 – OSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa beat them in the dual.

I am sure there are other examples and of course if you add Spencer back in the mix this year Iowa would have at least tied the dual with PSU and probably would have won off bonus from Lee but this year could have been another example of Iowa being the better dual team with PSU taking the team title.

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21 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

While I am sure you are correct that the majority of the time the same team would win the NCAAs and the dual team in the same year but here are a few examples:

2011 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2013 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2015 – OSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa beat them in the dual.

I am sure there are other examples and of course if you add Spencer back in the mix this year Iowa would have at least tied the dual with PSU and probably would have won off bonus from Lee but this year could have been another example of Iowa being the better dual team with PSU taking the team title.

You make an interesting point about injuries.

A single starter missing a dual for injury/illness can result in a 12 point swing and easily change the outcome of the dual.  Keeping this in mind, I think tournament scoring is actually more accurate in determining the best team than a 1 time head to head dual meet.

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30 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

While I am sure you are correct that the majority of the time the same team would win the NCAAs and the dual team in the same year but here are a few examples:

2011 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2013 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2015 – OSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa beat them in the dual.

I am sure there are other examples and of course if you add Spencer back in the mix this year Iowa would have at least tied the dual with PSU and probably would have won off bonus from Lee but this year could have been another example of Iowa being the better dual team with PSU taking the team title.

Unless it's Iowa

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6 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

You make an interesting point about injuries.

A single starter missing a dual for injury/illness can result in a 12 point swing and easily change the outcome of the dual.  Keeping this in mind, I think tournament scoring is actually more accurate in determining the best team than a 1 time head to head dual meet.

A single starter missing at the NCAA Tournament can theoretically result in a 32 point swing if he missed that tournament as well...

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

A single starter missing at the NCAA Tournament can theoretically result in a 32 point swing if he missed that tournament as well...

Right, but in a tournament setting where you could, in theory, have 9 other wrestlers, score up to 32 points, the effect of a single wrestler missing is much smaller.

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1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

Unless it's Iowa

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make.  Yes, I am an Iowa fan and I knew there were some years we beat a team in the dual and that team went on to win the team title at NCAA so I used them as examples but please feel free to use your own work to come up with other examples.  If you are trying to indicate I am being an Iowa homer in this thread, while I admit that is true but that is the exact reason I used them, because I knew of example the OP was asking for.

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2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Unless it's Iowa

Really, it isn't an answerable question.  Teams would approach regular season duals differently and most certainly would approach the post season duals differently.    Add in the transfer portal now and just imagine how much harder the top teams would be trying for a guy that may make even the slightest difference at a weight that is even slightly uncertain...

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1 minute ago, Twooooo said:

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make.  Yes, I am an Iowa fan and I knew there were some years we beat a team in the dual and that team went on to win the team title at NCAA so I used them as examples but please feel free to use your own work to come up with other examples.  If you are trying to indicate I am being an Iowa homer in this thread, while I admit that is true but that is the exact reason I used them, because I knew of example the OP was asking for.

It also isn't your fault that memories are most recent and PSU has won 9 of the last 11 NCAA Tournaments...

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2 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make.  Yes, I am an Iowa fan and I knew there were some years we beat a team in the dual and that team went on to win the team title at NCAA so I used them as examples but please feel free to use your own work to come up with other examples.  If you are trying to indicate I am being an Iowa homer in this thread, while I admit that is true but that is the exact reason I used them, because I knew of example the OP was asking for.

The only point I was making that the general rule seemed to apply unless Iowa didn't win individuals. I wasn't making any judgments. 

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13 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make.  Yes, I am an Iowa fan and I knew there were some years we beat a team in the dual and that team went on to win the team title at NCAA so I used them as examples but please feel free to use your own work to come up with other examples.  If you are trying to indicate I am being an Iowa homer in this thread, while I admit that is true but that is the exact reason I used them, because I knew of example the OP was asking for.

Question - in those years did you feel that Iowa deserved to be the NCAA team champion, as a result of beating the actual NCAA team champ?

The point I'm trying to make is for those calling for the team champ to be decided via dual rather than NCAA tournament, is that the change should only be made if you feel like, more often than not, the current method of deciding the team champ is inaccurate and flawed.

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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5 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Right, but in a tournament setting where you could, in theory, have 9 other wrestlers, score up to 32 points, the effect of a single wrestler missing is much smaller.

Yes, but in a dual setting you can still put someone else out on the mat and try to mitigate the damage.  At NCAA's(see Suriano at PSU) you essentially end up voiding...

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35 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

While I am sure you are correct that the majority of the time the same team would win the NCAAs and the dual team in the same year but here are a few examples:

2011 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2013 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2015 – OSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa beat them in the dual.

I am sure there are other examples and of course if you add Spencer back in the mix this year Iowa would have at least tied the dual with PSU and probably would have won off bonus from Lee but this year could have been another example of Iowa being the better dual team with PSU taking the team title.

Iowa won that dual largely because Nathan Burak beat Kyle Snyder 2-1. Burak won because Snyder took injury time in between periods 1 and 2 and this allowed Burak to take down to start periods 2 and 3. He won on 2 escapes. 

This decided a dual, therefore theoretically it could decide a national championship in a dual format. Is this really what fans want? I don't think so. 

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43 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

While I am sure you are correct that the majority of the time the same team would win the NCAAs and the dual team in the same year but here are a few examples:

2011 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2013 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2015 – OSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa beat them in the dual.

I am sure there are other examples and of course if you add Spencer back in the mix this year Iowa would have at least tied the dual with PSU and probably would have won off bonus from Lee but this year could have been another example of Iowa being the better dual team with PSU taking the team title.

interesting point... they were dominated in the dual, however, my memory is fading..., did those guys who got beat in the dual end up placing higher at the tourney? 

perhaps even avenge the loss at the tourney? 

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8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Iowa won that dual largely because Nathan Burak beat Kyle Snyder 2-1. Burak won because Snyder took injury time in between periods 1 and 2 and this allowed Burak to take down to start periods 2 and 3. He won on 2 escapes. 

This decided a dual, therefore theoretically it could decide a national championship in a dual format. Is this really what fans want? I don't think so. 

Sounds more like a criticism of Folkstyle scoring rules than a dual team championship.

Same thing could happen in a close tournament team championship race

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13 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Question - in those years did you feel that Iowa deserved to be the NCAA team champion, as a result of beating the actual NCAA team champ?

Well I want to be clear that I am completely undecided on how I want the team championship to be decided.  I can see points to having a dual TEAM championship but I also think we need to reward individual champs and unless you are going to do two separate tourneys for this, a dual tourney for team and a tourney for individual champs then I believe the way it is being done now is in fact the best way to do it.

Now to answer your question, yes, I do believe Iowa deserves to be the TEAM champs in those years solely based off winning the duals.  Who knows, if there would have been a dual tourney at the end of the year, maybe the outcome of the duals that Iowa won those year might have changed in a tourney format but if you are going solely based off Iowa winning the duals, then yes, they were the best TEAM.

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8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

interesting point... they were dominated in the dual, however, my memory is fading..., did those guys who got beat in the dual end up placing higher at the tourney? 

perhaps even avenge the loss at the tourney? 

I honestly have no idea but I guessing some of them might have considering PSU won the team title.

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7 minutes ago, GockeS said:

interesting point... they were dominated in the dual, however, my memory is fading..., did those guys who got beat in the dual end up placing higher at the tourney? 

perhaps even avenge the loss at the tourney? 

2013 Iowa won 22-16. If Matt Brown had not lost 4-3 to Mike Evans but had rather won by 1 pt then that match would have been tied. 

Penn State beat Iowa by more than 50 points at the NCAA Tournament because Iowa had only 4 guys AA. 

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Iowa won that dual largely because Nathan Burak beat Kyle Snyder 2-1. Burak won because Snyder took injury time in between periods 1 and 2 and this allowed Burak to take down to start periods 2 and 3. He won on 2 escapes. 

This decided a dual, therefore theoretically it could decide a national championship in a dual format. Is this really what fans want? I don't think so. 

Well this happens all the time.  I am not saying this is what fans want but it is part of the sport.  It is boring as heck but it is the way the sport is now.

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55 minutes ago, Twooooo said:

While I am sure you are correct that the majority of the time the same team would win the NCAAs and the dual team in the same year but here are a few examples:

2011 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2013 – PSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa dominated them in the dual.

2015 – OSU wins team at NCAA but Iowa beat them in the dual.

I am sure there are other examples and of course if you add Spencer back in the mix this year Iowa would have at least tied the dual with PSU and probably would have won off bonus from Lee but this year could have been another example of Iowa being the better dual team with PSU taking the team title.

In 2013 Iowa finished 4th at national duals.  Those were won by MN.  Minnesota also won national duals in 2014 and beat PSU (who did not participate in national duals) in a dual.

Edited by Fishbane

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

Iowa won that dual largely because Nathan Burak beat Kyle Snyder 2-1. Burak won because Snyder took injury time in between periods 1 and 2 and this allowed Burak to take down to start periods 2 and 3. He won on 2 escapes. 

This decided a dual, therefore theoretically it could decide a national championship in a dual format. Is this really what fans want? I don't think so. 

But, PSU winning over Minnesota by 5.5, mainly because the 1 seed. Mitchell Port got upset and Dardanes had to wrestle him in the R12 is a more accurate way?  In  that same tournament, Gulibon won 1 match, but it was 10-2 over Pizzuto of Eastern Michigan.  Pizzuto should be factor in deciding a championship between PSU and Minnesota?  Come on.  

There is a great chance PSU still wins every title they did and maybe even more.  I just don't get any arguments that say the Individual tournament is a better way to determine the best team across 10 weights.  Do I get why some of you like it better?  Absolutely.  But, that isn't the argument...

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