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10 minutes ago, newuser69 said:

How much better do we think Real Woods is than Bartlett at 141 regardless of this rumor? I would not be shocked if Bartlett was slightly better.

Based on...his proximity to Cael Sanderson?  Because the empirical evidence says that Woods is significantly better.

Edited by VakAttack

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6 minutes ago, newuser69 said:

How much better do we think Real Woods is than Bartlett at 141 regardless of this rumor? I would not be shocked if Bartlett was slightly better.

I will play the transitive property game and say Real Woods is better. While Woods was not close to scoring on Nick Lee, he only gave up a single takedown to a takedown machine at this year's NCAAs. At the beginning of last season, Bartlett wrestled 141 in open tournaments and went on record saying he wanted 141. That he ultimately capitulated and went 149 suggests to me that he was not close to Nick Lee last year.

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What is the massive obsession with Beau Bartlett? He’s won some dual matches but he went DNQ last year and 1-2 at NCAAs. He was 16-12 final record this year. That’s not up to Penn St standard and he probably won’t be in the lineup anymore. Woods is a 2x AA and gave Nick Lee his toughest match, 3-2.

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1 hour ago, Lunaticfringe said:

What is the massive obsession with Beau Bartlett? He’s won some dual matches but he went DNQ last year and 1-2 at NCAAs. He was 16-12 final record this year. That’s not up to Penn St standard and he probably won’t be in the lineup anymore. Woods is a 2x AA and gave Nick Lee his toughest match, 3-2.

He still has a redshirt available.   I've seen speculation he could work his way down to 133 for 2023-2024

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i think that the "massive obsession with Beau Bartlett" has to do with how close his loses where when he wrestled up a weight.  If he can get a takedown instead of his opponent (a four point swing best case) the impression is that his record and AA chances improve dramatically.  I'm not interested enough in the argument to examine the scores to validate the theory - but since I'm a PSU fan I'd be ok with it playing out.  It may be wishful thinking that a lower weight and an additional year experience mean that level of improvement but it is not crazy talk either.

Edited by swoopdown

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Bartlett seems like he'd be better at a lower weight. His lack of demonstrated offense has been a limiting factor so far at 149. I think Beau could be an All-American one day, but you certainly don't pass up on Real Woods because you have him, especially with a redshirt available.

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5 hours ago, TheHeel said:

Idaho, I was asking why you consider it a valid thought. No need to get defensive! I was just wondering if you knew more than Engel being his coach.

My apologies - It's hard to tell a tone from words and I assumed the wrong tone in your response.

Why is it valid?  Because Engel did coach him at Stanford and from what I understand they have a good relationship. Blake was actually the guy who had more to do with bringing him in (with Izzy coaching him in HS). Blake is now a HS coach in Texas so that is not an option. Engel has also been a national greco team coach and is the 2x coach of the year. Woods is a Cadet Greco world team member. I am not sure what his aspirations are now, but at one point he was the top age group greco kid in the country.  The OSU program as well as the DAM RTC is trending upward fast. I don't think that Woods will end up in Corvallis - but the reasoning behind it is certainly valid. 

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5 hours ago, Lunaticfringe said:

What is the massive obsession with Beau Bartlett? He’s won some dual matches but he went DNQ last year and 1-2 at NCAAs. He was 16-12 final record this year. That’s not up to Penn St standard and he probably won’t be in the lineup anymore. Woods is a 2x AA and gave Nick Lee his toughest match, 3-2.

Not a massive obsession, just think Barlett is plenty capable of taking 6th at 141. 

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23 minutes ago, newuser69 said:

Not a massive obsession, just think Barlett is plenty capable of taking 6th at 141. 

Yet at the same time he was almost not capable of even qualifying this year. 

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7 hours ago, Lunaticfringe said:

What is the massive obsession with Beau Bartlett? He’s won some dual matches but he went DNQ last year and 1-2 at NCAAs. He was 16-12 final record this year. That’s not up to Penn St standard and he probably won’t be in the lineup anymore. Woods is a 2x AA and gave Nick Lee his toughest match, 3-2.

He was 15-10 and really only had 1 bad loss (Bryant).  His other losses were to the champ, runner up, 4th placer, 5th placer x2, 2 R12 guys, and twice to a 6th year senior that used to be a 157.

Woods was only a 1x AA finisher and to steal Idaho's words, "was almost not capable of qualifying" in 2021 (yes, extenuating circumstances).

I'd take Woods, but I think he probably only wins maybe 6 of 10 matches or so.

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Man, people act like Beau Bartlett is the only wrestler who's ever been undersized in the history of the world in an effort to dismiss him being extremely middling as a college wrestler thusfar.  The best win of his career is over Josh Parco.

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48 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

He was 15-10 and really only had 1 bad loss (Bryant).  His other losses were to the champ, runner up, 4th placer, 5th placer x2, 2 R12 guys, and twice to a 6th year senior that used to be a 157.

Woods was only a 1x AA finisher and to steal Idaho's words, "was almost not capable of qualifying" in 2021 (yes, extenuating circumstances).

I'd take Woods, but I think he probably only wins maybe 6 of 10 matches or so.

He was 16-12 after he went 1-2 at NCAAs. A lot of guys “only lost 4-2” to guys but at the end of the day who has the guy beat. How many AAs or qualifiers did he beat this season? Any majors, techs or pins of those opponents? Penn st is seeking those kinds of guys, not guys who win by 1. We see guys go up and down all the time, some do no better down a weight class due to not having horsepower. 

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8 hours ago, newuser69 said:

How much better do we think Real Woods is than Bartlett at 141 regardless of this rumor? I would not be shocked if Bartlett was slightly better.

This is a worse take than the 'Ethan Smith hasn't improved since arriving in CBus' one.

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9 hours ago, Lunaticfringe said:

What is the massive obsession with Beau Bartlett? He’s won some dual matches but he went DNQ last year and 1-2 at NCAAs. He was 16-12 final record this year. That’s not up to Penn St standard and he probably won’t be in the lineup anymore. Woods is a 2x AA and gave Nick Lee his toughest match, 3-2.

He was a top 10 recruit in the class of 2020, and that's pretty much it. I think he medaled at Jr. Worlds this past summer too. Maybe year 3 is the charm for him.

 

The expectations for top recruits at PSU are sky high, but their 2 blue chips (Howard and Bartlett) from that year have been very lackluster so far. 

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Beau Bartlett will be better at 141 but I don't think you can pencil him in as an AA level guy there off of what you saw at 149. Could he be? Absolutely, he had some solid wins at 149 overall if he was "undersized" but Real Woods is a 100% an upgrade and Cael wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't take him if he was interested. 

Put it this way, Michael Beard ACTUALLY was an All American at 197 on a bum knee and it didn't stop Cael from bringing in a potential upgrade at Max Dean who was going to be an unknown up at 197. Leave no stone unturned to upgrade your roster.

If Kennedy Monday wants in at Penn State at 165 and he'll come for free, you'd be a fool not to take him also. Will Facundo likely be much better next year than he was this year? Absolutely but he'd have to make a major jump from what he has shown this year for anyone to say no way do you take Kennedy Monday.

That's the deal at Penn State. It's sink or swim for the young freshman, it's a tough standard but it seems top recruits aren't afraid that they'll meet that tough standard. With NIL and the portal, the recruiting over might even get worse. Bottom line, their track record at NCAAs is so attractive kids who believe they are the best just want that coaching. It's truthfully just not a school to go to if you want 4 NCAAs and might be a late bloomer. Now if you're willing to wait and win a national title as a junior or senior but got replaced as a sophomore because you R12'ed as a freshman and Cael brought in a transfer then sure. 

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6 hours ago, Lunaticfringe said:

He was 16-12 after he went 1-2 at NCAAs. A lot of guys “only lost 4-2” to guys but at the end of the day who has the guy beat. How many AAs or qualifiers did he beat this season? Any majors, techs or pins of those opponents? Penn st is seeking those kinds of guys, not guys who win by 1. We see guys go up and down all the time, some do no better down a weight class due to not having horsepower. 

No I’m pretty sure 15-10 is including the 1-2 at NCAA.  I didn’t say anything about close losses, I simply said of his 10 losses, 5 were to the guys who finished top 5 at 149, 2 were to R12 guys, and 2 were to a 6th year guy that had cut down from 157 so not a good matchup for a young “undersized” guy.

I agree, bonus is an area where I’m sure Cael would like to see him improve.

Obviously TBD how he does at 141, but if he is “undersized” the assumption is he would not have no horsepower and should really have more.   Look no further than the NCAA finals at 141 for a guy who had success cutting down from 149 to 141 (not saying Bartlett will make the finals, just an example).
 

6 hours ago, nhs67 said:

This is a worse take than the 'Ethan Smith hasn't improved since arriving in CBus' one.

Eh, I think it’s a “hot” take but it may not be too far off.  We don’t really know how good Bartlett will be at 141, he was not bad at 149 so it’s not a stretch to think he could be a mid-AA at 141.

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15 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Man, people act like Beau Bartlett is the only wrestler who's ever been undersized in the history of the world in an effort to dismiss him being extremely middling as a college wrestler thusfar.  The best win of his career is over Josh Parco.

It was Kyle Parco, but I agree with your point

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