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Being reported on Intermat that NWCA withdrawing proposal

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[highlight=#e1ebf2]NCAA told the NWCA to go back to the table, try again[/highlight]

 

that's kind of the opposite of what happened. but whatever.

 

I read that the Chairman of the NCAA Wrestling Committe requested the conference call this morning after the NWCA indicated that they were withdrawing support for the proposal; but yeah, whatever.

 

 

what i find interesting is that every one of you agree with your head coach.

 

all cornell fans = for

 

all psu fans = against

 

loyal much?

 

 

Actually, I haven't found that entirely true from either side (Isn't Pinnum a Penn State fan?), and if you've followed any of my own comments, I've expressed a number of concerns about moving forward with this; but I do have a lot of respect for Rob Koll, and for what he tries to do for the sport, and I find it disgraceful how some have tried to resort to character assasination rather than address the issues; so yeah, I guess in that sense, I'm loyal. I think Rob deserves that much, even if I don't entirely agree with him.

 

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also, for the record, i don't think it's possible for me to have more respect for an individual than i do for pat tocci. he's a role model to me.

 

that being said, i think there needs to be more communication and some tweaks in the proposal before this even gets voted on.

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If it doesn't pass the sniff test after all the water has passed under the bridge they can vote it down. If it doesn't pass the coaches vote, they might elect more time and effort into crafting concerns on another proposal. That's if the NCAA and ESPN are still interested.

 

I not getting the opposition to even having a vote on proceeding on the work that has been to date.

Check and mate. Scribe wins.

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It already didn't pass the sniff test, yet they forced them to vote anyways. Yeah fck the coaches and fans. They are meaningless at this point.
aren't the coaches getting a vote? It sounds like they have an opportunity to shut it down. It seems on here there is at least many fans for it as against it.

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The charm of the NCAA's is a kid from App State might sneak through to the finals...I don't see an App State dual team even making the national duals.
All those neat singlets you see at the NCAA's that you have never seen before, well, you won't be seeing those anymore.

Bob illustrates perfectly the problem with the team dual championships, particularly if they replace or diminish the current format. There are many talented "individuals" that will never get the chance to compete on the big stage with the dual format if they are with less funded, less competitive smaller schools. Matt Valenti among dozens of others come to mind. Teams like Hofstra, Tennessee-Chattanooga, Edinboro, Stanford, and on and on would never see the limelight. The likely result is the Honeycutts, Amuchasteguis, and Valentis of the world would find the select few top wrestling schools to find their glory. It's really about individual achievement and freedom vs collective redistribution. Boy, where have we seen that before? The proposed changes strike me as a power grab by an organization that ultimately will stifle individual efforts in our sport. Continuing to build our youth programs and camps and distribute our product with live video feeds is the way forward. The proposed changes are not the way forward.

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Some funny assumptions..... Minnesota beat PSU at the very beginning of the year in a dual meet. Based on some individual matchups at the NCAAs between the two teams BUT way more importantly the improvement Penn State made and their way Of peaking at the end of the year....I believe Penn state would have spanked Minnesota in a dual meet>> so I dont think it will change the team national champion whether it was a dual or tournament. Look at Penn states future lineup and tell me Cael is worried about losing to minny or Cornell( at the end of the season)in a dual tournament. I think he genuinely and Brands does as well..wanna keep the excitement of the greatest wrestling tournament in the world THE NCAA WRESTING CHAMPIONSHIPS. Why try to screw around with the one thing that isnt broken. The cool thing about the NCAAs is not just the champion but all the schools trying to place in the top ten. These teams know they wont win but it is great for the teams and fans to squeek out a top ten placing. In a dual tourney there will be to many blow outs!!! And the teams from 6th to 15th place is so unpredictable which is one of the exciting things of this GREAT tournament.

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Easy to say but they still lost and didn't show up to national duals. I haven't looked at the schedule but I wouldn't just hand them a win or minny this year either.

 

 

Some funny assumptions..... Minnesota beat PSU at the very beginning of the year in a dual meet. Based on some individual matchups at the NCAAs between the two teams BUT way more importantly the improvement Penn State made and their way Of peaking at the end of the year....I believe Penn state would have spanked Minnesota in a dual meet>> so I dont think it will change the team national champion whether it was a dual or tournament. Look at Penn states future lineup and tell me Cael is worried about losing to minny or Cornell( at the end of the season)in a dual tournament. I think he genuinely and Brands does as well..wanna keep the excitement of the greatest wrestling tournament in the world THE NCAA WRESTING CHAMPIONSHIPS. Why try to screw around with the one thing that isnt broken. The cool thing about the NCAAs is not just the champion but all the schools trying to place in the top ten. These teams know they wont win but it is great for the teams and fans to squeek out a top ten placing. In a dual tourney there will be to many blow outs!!! And the teams from 6th to 15th place is so unpredictable which is one of the exciting things of this GREAT tournament.

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Easy to say but they still lost and didn't show up to national duals. I haven't looked at the schedule but I wouldn't just hand them a win or minny this year either.

 

 

Some funny assumptions..... Minnesota beat PSU at the very beginning of the year in a dual meet. Based on some individual matchups at the NCAAs between the two teams BUT way more importantly the improvement Penn State made and their way Of peaking at the end of the year....I believe Penn state would have spanked Minnesota in a dual meet>> so I dont think it will change the team national champion whether it was a dual or tournament. Look at Penn states future lineup and tell me Cael is worried about losing to minny or Cornell( at the end of the season)in a dual tournament. I think he genuinely and Brands does as well..wanna keep the excitement of the greatest wrestling tournament in the world THE NCAA WRESTING CHAMPIONSHIPS. Why try to screw around with the one thing that isnt broken. The cool thing about the NCAAs is not just the champion but all the schools trying to place in the top ten. These teams know they wont win but it is great for the teams and fans to squeek out a top ten placing. In a dual tourney there will be to many blow outs!!! And the teams from 6th to 15th place is so unpredictable which is one of the exciting things of this GREAT tournament.

Penn State isn't wrestling Minnesota this year. At all. Period.

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Some people just want to watch the world burn.

 

If it is this bad...why would the coaches vote for it. Seems like that does not make sense to me. This is in their hands isn't it.

 

You were whining before they didn't have a say.

 

Don;t you think some of the college coaches have a brain?

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Bob illustrates perfectly the problem with the team dual championships, particularly if they replace or diminish the current format. There are many talented "individuals" that will never get the chance to compete on the big stage with the dual format if they are with less funded, less competitive smaller schools. Matt Valenti among dozens of others come to mind. Teams like Hofstra, Tennessee-Chattanooga, Edinboro, Stanford, and on and on would never see the limelight. The likely result is the Honeycutts, Amuchasteguis, and Valentis of the world would find the select few top wrestling schools to find their glory. It's really about individual achievement and freedom vs collective redistribution. Boy, where have we seen that before? The proposed changes strike me as a power grab by an organization that ultimately will stifle individual efforts in our sport. Continuing to build our youth programs and camps and distribute our product with live video feeds is the way forward. The proposed changes are not the way forward.

And that's not the case in, say, all of the team sports, and further, most individual sports as well?

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With no head to head with Penn State we will probably get a repeat of last year with Penn St. and Minnesota co-champions in the big ten, Minnesota winning the duals, and Penn state willing the individual tournament. Although Penn State probably would win a head to head but only if DT gets a pin or tech fall.

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The issue for this thread has nothing to do with whether or not PSU would have beaten Minnie at the end of last season in a dual. Minnie deserves the credit for their dual victory over PSU. I learned this on this forum, that PSU and Minnie are not facing each other this year due to Big10 scheduling rules. The coaches didn't have much to do with no facing each other this year.

 

Wrestling is significantly different than the team sports like FB and BB and would never garner the same media exposure regardless of format.

 

For fun I'd venture to guess that those who are strong supporters of the proposed changes to a dual format are Democrats, and those who strongly believe the current format is the correct path forward are Republicans. This has as much to do about ideology than anything else. Both sides have good intentions. I'd love to see a poll on this question.

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The issue for this thread has nothing to do with whether or not PSU would have beaten Minnie at the end of last season in a dual. Minnie deserves the credit for their dual victory over PSU. I learned this on this forum, that PSU and Minnie are not facing each other this year due to Big10 scheduling rules. The coaches didn't have much to do with no facing each other this year.

 

Wrestling is significantly different than the team sports like FB and BB and would never garner the same media exposure regardless of format.

 

For fun I'd venture to guess that those who are strong supporters of the proposed changes to a dual format are Democrats, and those who strongly believe the current format is the correct path forward are Republicans. This has as much to do about ideology than anything else. Both sides have good intentions. I'd love to see a poll on this question.

 

For fun ....

 

Question 1:

A. Strongly support proposed changes

B. Mildly support proposed changes

C. Mildly support the current format

D. Strongly support the current format

 

Question 2:

Are you Democrat or Republican?

 

 

Dont think JB will let this fly... but for the record me and my friends are all conservatives and almost all of us are in support of the duals.

 

The only ideology that comes into play here is if a person was raised in more of a team environment (Blair/Apple Valley/Collins Hill/Brandon) or focused on going to tournaments on their own. Those with a individual focus are those that seem to have come from a situation where they had to do it all on their own while dual supporters see importance in a team and value it like most other sports do.

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Dont think JB will let this fly... but for the record me and my friends are all conservatives and almost all of us are in support of the duals.

 

The only ideology that comes into play here is if a person was raised in more of a team environment (Blair/Apple Valley/Collins Hill/Brandon) or focused on going to tournaments on their own. Those with a individual focus are those that seem to have come from a situation where they had to do it all on their own while dual supporters see importance in a team and value it like most other sports do.

 

Fair enough ... I edited out the political question. I've always felt that everything relates back to politics in some way, and acknowledge that I, and Cael are politically conservative and feel that the dual championships would present big problems for less funded schools. I still think that Bob Meadows point illustrates best what would be lacking in a dual championship system. Cael has made his point that smaller less funded teams will struggle under the proposed system. I'd imagine that Amuchastegui would have chosen Cornell over Stanford under the new proposed changes. If this were to have happened programs like Stanford would lose support and possibly vanish over time.

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Dont think JB will let this fly... but for the record me and my friends are all conservatives and almost all of us are in support of the duals.

 

The only ideology that comes into play here is if a person was raised in more of a team environment (Blair/Apple Valley/Collins Hill/Brandon) or focused on going to tournaments on their own. Those with a individual focus are those that seem to have come from a situation where they had to do it all on their own while dual supporters see importance in a team and value it like most other sports do.

 

Fair enough ... I edited out the political question. I've always felt that everything relates back to politics in some way, and acknowledge that I, and Cael are politically conservative and feel that the dual championships would present big problems for less funded schools. I still think that Bob Meadows point illustrates best what would be lacking in a dual championship system. Cael has made his point that smaller less funded teams will struggle under the proposed system. I'd imagine that Amuchastegui would have chosen Cornell over Stanford under the new proposed changes. If this were to have happened programs like Stanford would lose support and possibly vanish over time.

 

I don't think there is reason to assume that Amuchastegui would have gone to Cornell. Recruits often pick schools and coaches for other reasons than team national championship prospects. This happens in other sports all the time. In wrestling, he would know that no matter where he went, as long as he had a good coach and was happy at the school, he could reach his individual goals.

 

Stanford allowed him the chance to redshirt, something he couldn't have done at Cornell. Furthermore, Lewnes was at his weight and he probably would have sat behind him while Stanford allowed him the chance to compete early.

 

This is not even considering staying on the west coast where, in theory, it is easier for his family to see him wrestle.

 

I just dont buy all the doom and gloom stories that if this happens Jesse Jantzen, and JP O'Connor would have gone to Cornell while Franklin Gomez and Jake Herbert would have gone to Michigan.

 

 

For the life of me, I cant come to terms with the notion that guys are going to find the national team title so important that they will stop picking Penn, Princeton, Brown, and Harvard over Cornell. Additionally, am I support to assume that now guys will all of a sudden say that they don't want a full ride at Pitt because Oklahoma has a better dual team that might be able to win a national dual title? I don't see that happening. Yes, coaching matters, and workout partners, but athletes pick schools for a lot of reasons.

 

 

I think, if anything, guys will get into the lineups more often because duals matter more which will help the whole team. The guys that are individually focused will still be able to be. I mean, it isn't like any of the Michigan State, Stanford, Rutgers, Harvard, or whereever recruits picked those schools because they thought they would raise a national champion team trophy. Or do you really believe that?

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You guys keep talking about the individual tournament in fatalist tones. It's not going anywhere. Got that? Amuchastegui would still be a national champ with the school he wished to attend. PSU would still be the team champ at the individual tourney with a trophy. And another team would be a dualie champion at a NCAA funded and espn covered national team championship.

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You guys keep talking about the individual tournament in fatalist tones. It's not going anywhere. Got that? Amuchastegui would still be a national champ with the school he wished to attend. PSU would still be the team champ at the individual tourney with a trophy. And another team would be a dualie champion at a NCAA funded and espn covered national team championship.

 

 

 

Personally, I disagree with you here. But like you said, we all knew PSU was going to win the team title this year going into the event. There was no excitement in the team race. However, it would have been a VERY exciting team race when you realize that Iowa and Oklahoma State beat Minnesota and Minnesota beat Penn State (amoung other great story lines that would have factored in, including Cornell and Illinois). Now you have Minnesota, who would have had a fairly low seed, storming back and avenging two of their regular season losses to make the final. They are facing a team that they already beat but Penn State is now running on at full steam. WHO WANTS IT?

 

That is a great story for ESPN to sell and fans will rally behind it.

 

Furthermore, even if they don't cover the first round duals they may include highlights from them while building up the story of how the teams got there and show the brackets. Minnesota opened with a win over a strong Kent State team and Iowa knocked off Wyoming who has been making great strides as a program.

 

A lot of people see the positives but some people are weary of change and hampered by fear by thinking what it it is different. While others are thinking this is awesome it will be different.

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If people will stop to think and understand the individual tournament remains intact, they will be able to set aside Cael's argument that the opposition is about the small and weak teams. If you understand that all those opportunities are the same, all you are left with, in opposition to the proposal, is the very top programs wanting to hold on to their perennial dynasties.

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If people will stop to think and understand the individual tournament remains intact, they will be able to set aside Cael's argument that the opposition is about the small and weak teams. If you understand that all those opportunities are the same, all you are left with, in opposition to the proposal, is the very top programs wanting to hold on to their perennial dynasties.

 

You nailed it!

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... we all knew PSU was going to win the team title this year going into the event. There was no excitement in the team race. However, it would have been a VERY exciting team race when you realize that Iowa and Oklahoma State beat Minnesota and Minnesota beat Penn State (amoung other great story lines that would have factored in, including Cornell and Illinois). Now you have Minnesota, who would have had a fairly low seed, storming back and avenging two of their regular season losses to make the final. They are facing a team that they already beat but Penn State is now running on at full steam.
I think your point here illustrates how the new system "levels the playing field". It's always been clear that tournaments measure the quality of a team with more detail and accuracy than dual meets primarily because of the point system, and the 2nd chance opportunity for team points in the wrestlebacks.

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