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Being reported on Intermat that NWCA withdrawing proposal

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If people will stop to think and understand the individual tournament remains intact, they will be able to set aside Cael's argument that the opposition is about the small and weak teams. If you understand that all those opportunities are the same, all you are left with, in opposition to the proposal, is the very top programs wanting to hold on to their perennial dynasties.

 

You nailed it!

No disrespect, but I disagree. While the "individual" tournament would remain in effect, the dual tournament would supplant it as the method for determining the team national championship. The dual tournament would be rescheduled as the season-ending event and the winner would be recognized as the NCAA National Champions. The team winner of the "individual" tournament would be recognized as the NWCA Champions. (I place "individual" in parentheses as that tournament currently determines the team title - as well as individual titles.)

 

In short, the method of determining the team national championship would be changed under the proposal. So, the plan encompasses more than just adding another NCAA sanctioned event. I believe that more support could be gained if the proposal was tweaked to add an NCAA National Duals Championship, but retain the current NCAA Championships (in its present format) as college wrestling's season-culminating event.

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If people will stop to think and understand the individual tournament remains intact, they will be able to set aside Cael's argument that the opposition is about the small and weak teams. If you understand that all those opportunities are the same, all you are left with, in opposition to the proposal, is the very top programs wanting to hold on to their perennial dynasties.

 

You nailed it!

No disrespect, but I disagree. While the "individual" tournament would remain in effect, the dual tournament would supplant it as the method for determining the team national championship. The dual tournament would be rescheduled as the season-ending event and the winner would be recognized as the NCAA National Champions. The team winner of the "individual" tournament would be recognized as the NWCA Champions. (I place "individual" in parentheses as that tournament currently determines the team title - as well as individual titles.)

 

In short, the method of determining the team national championship would be changed under the proposal. So, the plan encompasses more than just adding another NCAA sanctioned event. I believe that more support could be gained if the proposal was tweaked to add an NCAA National Duals Championship, but retain the current NCAA Championships (in its present format) as college wrestling's season-culminating event.

 

 

Can't have two NCAA team champions. That is a fact. NCAA won't allow it because it would mean wrestling is two sports. This point is moot.

 

We could have implemented the plan as your proposed using the qualification and regional formats to built the NWCA National Duals and keep the NCAA as it is. As anyone who follows the sport knows from all that came out the last two years when the NWCA changed the dual format from one site at northern iowa, the plan was always to move to a qualification system.

 

Why isn't this plan feasible in the manner you, and many people, had wanted? Basically every program in the country was involved in the change to regionals for last year's national duals. The NWCA offered to let Penn State host the national duals this past year and this coming season, in hopes of convincing them to participate so we could build more interest. Cael said duals don't matter, we don't compete for dual titles.

 

I suppose there are people out there (probably mainly Kentucky fans but no longer Memphis or UMass fans) that think Calipari is a leader in the college basketball community and would listen to anything he said too. Though basketball has money to burn so his lack of support for events does not hinder other program's growth.

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... we all knew PSU was going to win the team title this year going into the event. There was no excitement in the team race. However, it would have been a VERY exciting team race when you realize that Iowa and Oklahoma State beat Minnesota and Minnesota beat Penn State (amoung other great story lines that would have factored in, including Cornell and Illinois). Now you have Minnesota, who would have had a fairly low seed, storming back and avenging two of their regular season losses to make the final. They are facing a team that they already beat but Penn State is now running on at full steam.
I think your point here illustrates how the new system "levels the playing field". It's always been clear that tournaments measure the quality of a team with more detail and accuracy than dual meets primarily because of the point system, and the 2nd chance opportunity for team points in the wrestlebacks.

 

Not everyone on the team has the opportunity to contribute to points in the individual tournament, as they may not be able to qualify under the current system. I will preemptively accept your argument that not every team will be able to compete in the National Duals Championship format.... if you will accept my argument that not every NCAA football or basketball team will be able to participate in the end of season tournament for exactly the same reasons.

 

What we can all agree to is, that every NCAA wrestling team will have the opportunity to compete for a spot in the Team Dual Championship. This is how most other NCAA sporting events are contested. Some schools rise to the occasion and build a program that can compete. Some programs never gain footing and are lost/dropped. This happens in every NCAA sanctioned sport. We cannot control that with an end of season tournamet as we haven't been able to control under the current system.

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Can't have two NCAA team champions. That is a fact. NCAA won't allow it because it would mean wrestling is two sports. This point is moot.

 

I would never say never. They allow conference champions for tournaments and conference champions for duals. I can't find a logical reason to not allow NCAA team champions for both tournaments.

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Can we also all agree that every NCAA wrestling team currently has the opportunity to compete for the NCAA National Championship title? Of course, the more wrestlers they qualify for the tournament, the better their chances. However, at the beginning of the season, every team has the opportunity (at least mathematically) to send a full team to the tournament.

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Not everyone on the team has the opportunity to contribute to points in the individual tournament, as they may not be able to qualify under the current system.

True, but at the beginning of the season, doesn't everyone on a team have the opportunity to qualify for NCAAs based on their performance during the year? (just as every team must qualify to compete in the proposed national duals)

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The NCAA does not control conference championships. If a conference wants to award a dual champ and a tournament champ, that's on the conference. The NCAA will not award two championships in the same sport. There are 89 NCAA championships across 3 divisions. Division I wrestling will not be the only sport with two.

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Can't have two NCAA team champions. That is a fact. NCAA won't allow it because it would mean wrestling is two sports. This point is moot.

 

I would never say never. They allow conference champions for tournaments and conference champions for duals. I can't find a logical reason to not allow NCAA team champions for both tournaments.

Hopefully, that would be a possibility. Although those in favor of retaining the current NCAA Championships are charged with clinging to tradition, can't the same be said about the NCAA? Apparently, they do not want an NCAA national dual team champion and an NCAA national individual team champion. They want to flip the order of the two tournaments and change the name of the latter from NCAA champion to NWCA champion .

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Can't have two NCAA team champions. That is a fact. NCAA won't allow it because it would mean wrestling is two sports. This point is moot.

 

I would never say never. They allow conference champions for tournaments and conference champions for duals. I can't find a logical reason to not allow NCAA team champions for both tournaments.

Hopefully, that would be a possibility. Although those in favor of retaining the current NCAA Championships are charged with clinging to tradition, can't the same be said about the NCAA? Apparently, they do not want an NCAA national dual team champion and an NCAA national individual team champion. They want to flip the order of the two tournaments and change the name of the latter from NCAA champion to NWCA champion .

 

 

There is no difference between wrestling and basketball in that there is a regular season champion and a conference tournament champion. The only reason track as two champions is because indoor and outdoor are two different sports. If we had a freestyle season we could have a freestyle and folkstyle national champion but they would be two different sports.

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Can't have two NCAA team champions. That is a fact. NCAA won't allow it because it would mean wrestling is two sports. This point is moot.

FWIW, there are currently two NCAA team champions in Track and Field. Florida won both the indoor and outdoor titles in 2012. However, in 2011 and 2012, Florida won only the indoor title and Texas A&M won the outdoor title. (The indoor season runs from early December to early March. Then they take about two weeks off, and have the outdoor season from late March to early June.)

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There is no difference between wrestling and basketball in that there is a regular season champion and a conference tournament champion. The only reason track has two champions is because indoor and outdoor are two different sports. If we had a freestyle season we could have a freestyle and folkstyle national champion but they would be two different sports.

I agree on folkstyle/freestyle, but not necessarily on track and field. It can be argued that the latter is the same sport, but conducted in different venues so the athletes can compete in the winter. Sure, there are some differences (primarily the running events), but many events are the same whether conducted indoors or outdoors (e.g., field events).

 

And, while the running distances and track surfaces may differ, the rules of competition are essentially the same. For example, the first guy across the finish line wins the indoor 60-yard dash, just like the outdoor 100-yard dash is decided. Granted, an individual sprinter may be better at one event than the other. However, the rules are not as different as freestyle/folkstyle rules are, and in many other events the rules are identical whether the athletes are competing outdoors or indoors.

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If the individual tournament was still intact, it would be exactly the same but it's not. So please stop saying that. The NCAA isn't recognizing the team champ, the most important part of the tournament. Replacing it with some pseudo-trophy is not the same thing.

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Here's a novel idea, maybe the NCAA wants to get rid of the individual tournament altogether. If they think they could still bring in 12,000 fans and only have to take care of 8 teams, why bother even having an individual event anymore?

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