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alabrake88

How to solve the medical forfeits and ducking

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You make all the wrestlers at a weight class for a team count together. 

For instance if you dont wrestle and your backup goes out and loses then that counts against that weight class when it comes to seeding at any tournament. 

On top of this medical forfeits are also counted as losses.

On top of that if you weigh in and no action has taken place to "injure" you then if you dont take the mat (i.e. Colton Schultz 2x this year) then it also counts as a loss because you are clearly just ducking at that point.

By doing all of this it stops ducking, it stops teams sending out backups to protect their top guys records. 

No system is perfect but I believe this would work well.

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43 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

You make all the wrestlers at a weight class for a team count together. 

For instance if you dont wrestle and your backup goes out and loses then that counts against that weight class when it comes to seeding at any tournament. 

On top of this medical forfeits are also counted as losses.

On top of that if you weigh in and no action has taken place to "injure" you then if you dont take the mat (i.e. Colton Schultz 2x this year) then it also counts as a loss because you are clearly just ducking at that point.

By doing all of this it stops ducking, it stops teams sending out backups to protect their top guys records. 

No system is perfect but I believe this would work well.

The issue is there is no way to really prove if a guy is injured or not.  Even Schultz, there is no way to prove that he wasn't banged up and his coaches told him to warm up just to keep loose.  I am not saying that's what the situation is, but saying that no one really knows and can prove that.  It would be hard to penalize someone or give consequences to the weight class with so much subjectivity involved.  There would be uproars as well about certain cases where people were penalized and others where they were not.  

 

 

Edited by Schuteandscore

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44 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

The issue is there is no way to really prove if a guy is injured or not.  Even Schultz, there is no way to prove that he wasn't banged up and his coaches told him to warm up just to keep loose.  I am not saying that's what the situation is, but saying that no one really knows and can prove that.  It would be hard to penalize someone or give consequences to the weight class with so much subjectivity involved.  There would be uproars as well about certain cases where people were penalized and others where they were not.  

 

 

Everything would be treated equal so cant really be uproar. If the weight class loses it loses does not matter why. If the 197 from Nebraska (Starter,backup, forfeit) does not with the match then it goes as a negative mark on Nebraska's 197. This would keep starters from sitting out of big matches if they are healthy or have to sit back and watch a loss go on that weights record. 

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Again as a lot of people seem to have difficulty with- by doing the team compilation thing you aren't necessarily punishing the person involved. If he's that good, it's the other guys that get hurt. The seeding process isn't meant to honor wrestlers with their performance. It's meant to properly separate the better wrestlers. If Spencer Lee had suddenly come onto the scene at the last minute- he'd likely get the 32nd-33rd seed. Would you want to be the first seed in that case?

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10 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

Everything would be treated equal so cant really be uproar. If the weight class loses it loses does not matter why. If the 197 from Nebraska (Starter,backup, forfeit) does not with the match then it goes as a negative mark on Nebraska's 197. This would keep starters from sitting out of big matches if they are healthy or have to sit back and watch a loss go on that weights record. 

But that's the problem, not everything is equal.  Not every injury is the same.   You can't penalize a team for an injury just because people "might" think it's a duck.  I agree with gimpeltf, the wrong people also get punished.

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1 minute ago, Schuteandscore said:

But that's the problem, not everything is equal.  Not every injury is the same.   You can't penalize a team for an injury just because people "might" think it's a duck.  I agree with gimpeltf, the wrong people also get punished.

Except if you get injured mid match and forfeit it's an L. Any other sport it is an L as well. I'd this sport is to grow it needs to be easier to follow for a casual and this would help with that. If Lebron James is hurt and cat play his team loses it still counts as a loss. If Tom Brady is hurt and cant play it still counts as a loss. Same way if the teams star wrestler doesnt compete and they lose the teams still gets an L. The weight class also gets an L. The wrestlers are wrestling nearly half the matches they've been wrestling per year for the last 7 decades. Yet even with the advancements in training, medical and diets they cant wrestle yasmany matches as the guys in the 60s, 70s, 80s?

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18 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Again as a lot of people seem to have difficulty with- by doing the team compilation thing you aren't necessarily punishing the person involved. If he's that good, it's the other guys that get hurt. The seeding process isn't meant to honor wrestlers with their performance. It's meant to properly separate the better wrestlers. If Spencer Lee had suddenly come onto the scene at the last minute- he'd likely get the 32nd-33rd seed. Would you want to be the first seed in that case?

Show me a scenario that happens? Unless Spencer sat out the entire year.  But then he wouldn't have enough matches to make eligibility. 

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6 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

Except if you get injured mid match and forfeit it's an L. Any other sport it is an L as well. I'd this sport is to grow it needs to be easier to follow for a casual and this would help with that. If Lebron James is hurt and cat play his team loses it still counts as a loss. If Tom Brady is hurt and cant play it still counts as a loss. Same way if the teams star wrestler doesnt compete and they lose the teams still gets an L. The weight class also gets an L. The wrestlers are wrestling nearly half the matches they've been wrestling per year for the last 7 decades. Yet even with the advancements in training, medical and diets they cant wrestle yasmany matches as the guys in the 60s, 70s, 80s?

Listen, I understand your point and believe me, I am not for ducking.  What you're not seeing in my point is that you can't make accurate judgements on things like injuries to penalize someone for sitting.  Also, to respond to your example, if Lebron James gets hurt, they may still lose, but they have the opportunity to win with other players.  Wrestlers, just because they are not the starter, doesn't mean they are not capable of winning.  It shouldn't be an automatic loss if the starter sits.  The coach has control for a reason and will always control that aspect and the team.  That's the way it should be.  The solution isn't penalizing the sit, it's motivating the coaches to make different decisions.  If a kid is hurt, sit him.  Honestly, if the coach feels the starter should sit for ANY reason really, it's their decision, but motivate them to not want to sit them.  

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21 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

Everything would be treated equal so cant really be uproar. If the weight class loses it loses does not matter why. If the 197 from Nebraska (Starter,backup, forfeit) does not with the match then it goes as a negative mark on Nebraska's 197. This would keep starters from sitting out of big matches if they are healthy or have to sit back and watch a loss go on that weights record. 

in 2017, Dylan Palacio (Cornell) wrestled five matches prior to the EIWA tournament, due to real, actual injuries.  He took 6th at NCAAs.  Should his seed have been determined by the record of whoever replaced him for the majority of the season (in this instance, the guy was ranked #48 by wrestlestats)?

What do you do when a team enters multiple guys in a weight class at a tournament?

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12 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

Except if you get injured mid match and forfeit it's an L. Any other sport it is an L as well. I'd this sport is to grow it needs to be easier to follow for a casual and this would help with that. If Lebron James is hurt and cat play his team loses it still counts as a loss. If Tom Brady is hurt and cant play it still counts as a loss. Same way if the teams star wrestler doesnt compete and they lose the teams still gets an L. The weight class also gets an L. The wrestlers are wrestling nearly half the matches they've been wrestling per year for the last 7 decades. Yet even with the advancements in training, medical and diets they cant wrestle yasmany matches as the guys in the 60s, 70s, 80s?

If Tom Brady is hurt and doesn't play, his replacement's statistics don't get added to Brady's lifetime stats, do they?

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9 minutes ago, klehner said:

in 2017, Dylan Palacio (Cornell) wrestled five matches prior to the EIWA tournament, due to real, actual injuries.  He took 6th at NCAAs.  Should his seed have been determined by the record of whoever replaced him for the majority of the season (in this instance, the guy was ranked #48 by wrestlestats)?

What do you do when a team enters multiple guys in a weight class at a tournament?

With the Palacio example I'd say that regardless of seed with a few rare exceptions everything at NCAA works themselves out.

2nd example when you enter more than 1 wrestler 1 gets labeled the "starter" and those matches count towards the weight. 

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9 minutes ago, klehner said:

If Tom Brady is hurt and doesn't play, his replacement's statistics don't get added to Brady's lifetime stats, do they?

But I'm not saying add the stats together those are individual records. But the weight class as a team concept would stip nearly all these ducking and forfeit issues. The true way to fix this that they refuse to do is just hire a committee to seed the tournaments that can use judgement and punish people that 100% ducked competition during the year. 

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18 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

Except if you get injured mid match and forfeit it's an L. Any other sport it is an L as well. I'd this sport is to grow it needs to be easier to follow for a casual and this would help with that. If Lebron James is hurt and cat play his team loses it still counts as a loss. If Tom Brady is hurt and cant play it still counts as a loss. Same way if the teams star wrestler doesnt compete and they lose the teams still gets an L. The weight class also gets an L. The wrestlers are wrestling nearly half the matches they've been wrestling per year for the last 7 decades. Yet even with the advancements in training, medical and diets they cant wrestle yasmany matches as the guys in the 60s, 70s, 80s?

That's called a default. I have no problem calling an MF a loss.  As I've posted before, I was head computer scorer at D1s from 87-06. In the 90s I asked them to distinguish between forfeit types. I wasn't asking for all these ramifications just the ability to differentiate. It makes it clear to everyone what happened. In HS they still have only one name forfeit but it is theoretically possibility to wrestle after taking one if due to injury and if the tournament committee thinks it appropriate. Why risk having people have to ask why if all you need do is show it in the win type?

17 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

Show me a scenario that happens? Unless Spencer sat out the entire year.  But then he wouldn't have enough matches to make eligibility. 

 

What do you mean eligibility? He wouldn't qualify the conference for an AQ but he would qualify for Nats by his conference place.

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13 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

Listen, I understand your point and believe me, I am not for ducking.  What you're not seeing in my point is that you can't make accurate judgements on things like injuries to penalize someone for sitting.  Also, to respond to your example, if Lebron James gets hurt, they may still lose, but they have the opportunity to win with other players.  Wrestlers, just because they are not the starter, doesn't mean they are not capable of winning.  It shouldn't be an automatic loss if the starter sits.  The coach has control for a reason and will always control that aspect and the team.  That's the way it should be.  The solution isn't penalizing the sit, it's motivating the coaches to make different decisions.  If a kid is hurt, sit him.  Honestly, if the coach feels the starter should sit for ANY reason really, it's their decision, but motivate them to not want to sit them.  

If they are hurt to where they cant wrestle then they are incapable of winning. And his backup has a chance to win. Just like Lebrons team has a chance even if he is too hurt to compete. There needs to be strict punishments for situations that EVERYONE knows is ducking. And until they use real people to seed tournaments etc. This seems to be the only real solution. 

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2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

That's called a default. I have no problem calling an MF a loss.  As I've posted before, I was head computer scorer at D1s from 87-06. In the 90s I asked them to distinguish between forfeit types. I wasn't asking for all these ramifications just the ability to differentiate. It makes it clear to everyone what happened. In HS they still have only one name forfeit but it is theoretically possibility to wrestle after taking one if due to injury and if the tournament committee thinks it appropriate. Why risk having people have to ask why if all you need do is show it in the win type?

 

What do you mean eligibility? He wouldn't qualify the conference for an AQ but he would qualify for Nats by his conference place.

If you dont WIN the match at the weight it is a LOSS. That simple rule change would end this stuff immediately. Doesnt matter why, if you can't wrestle or dont wint the match it's a loss. Period. But for some reason wrestling gets softer every year. If you're hurt and cant compete it's a loss. If you're sick LOSS, if your gf broke up with you LOSS. But since it seems dont want to do that this is the only other solution that would outright stop it. 

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

That's called a default. I have no problem calling an MF a loss.  As I've posted before, I was head computer scorer at D1s from 87-06. In the 90s I asked them to distinguish between forfeit types. I wasn't asking for all these ramifications just the ability to differentiate. It makes it clear to everyone what happened. In HS they still have only one name forfeit but it is theoretically possibility to wrestle after taking one if due to injury and if the tournament committee thinks it appropriate. Why risk having people have to ask why if all you need do is show it in the win type?

 

What do you mean eligibility? He wouldn't qualify the conference for an AQ but he would qualify for Nats by his conference place.

I was responding about someone saying Spencer Lee would be the 32 seed. 

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Just now, alabrake88 said:

If you dont WIN the match at the weight it is a LOSS. That simple rule change would end this stuff immediately. Doesnt matter why, if you can't wrestle or dont wint the match it's a loss. Period. But for some reason wrestling gets softer every year. If you're hurt and cant compete it's a loss. If you're sick LOSS, if your gf broke up with you LOSS. But since it seems dont want to do that this is the only other solution that would outright stop it. 

Not sure why you're still arguing.  I was just giving history on the one term. And correcting you on the other.

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3 minutes ago, alabrake88 said:

If they are hurt to where they cant wrestle then they are incapable of winning. And his backup has a chance to win. Just like Lebrons team has a chance even if he is too hurt to compete. There needs to be strict punishments for situations that EVERYONE knows is ducking. And until they use real people to seed tournaments etc. This seems to be the only real solution. 

Again, and last time I will say it because I must not be saying it clearly.  There is absolutely no way, it's not possible, to PROVE anything is ever a duck.  

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1 minute ago, alabrake88 said:

I was responding about someone saying Spencer Lee would be the 32 seed. 

He might be if he didn't wrestle all year. Again, my point was that he wouldn't be the one punished.

At Districts (PIAA 11 AA) Ryan Crookham-138 only wrestled in the state duals so as far as District seeding he was seeded last as those bouts didn't count. Since there were only 11 he beat the 3 then the 2 then the 1 so, yes it worked out for him but at least one of those other guys wouldn't have wrestled him and that's the point. They get punished not him. 

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8 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

Again, and last time I will say it because I must not be saying it clearly.  There is absolutely no way, it's not possible, to PROVE anything is ever a duck.  

That's why every match at the weight by whoever the starter is that day for the team goes towards the weight. Does not matter why you lost, couldn't wrestle, etc. Its all the same in the end. If you're out for injury and your backup sucks then so be it. If you transfer in and only wrestle half the year that was the decision you made. Solves all the issues. And wrestlers would wrestle more than 25matches a year again 

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3 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

He might be if he didn't wrestle all year. Again, my point was that he wouldn't be the one punished.

At Districts (PIAA 11 AA) Ryan Crookham-138 only wrestled in the state duals so as far as District seeding he was seeded last as those bouts didn't count. Since there were only 11 he beat the 3 then the 2 then the 1 so, yes it worked out for him but at least one of those other guys wouldn't have wrestled him and that's the point. They get punished not him. 

Soencer would not have been the 32nd seed. Ybarra and Ayala would have been bit above .500 combined. But how did they get punished? The best guy won right? Maybe the 2nd best guy got 3rd instead of 2nd? I mean what is the issue? 

Edited by alabrake88

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11 minutes ago, IronChef said:

Everyone coming up with weird ways to punish people in seeding needs to internalize this fact. 

The seeding process will never be proper or done right til people with common sense do it. When its computerized or a formula it allows for humans to break the system or find loop holes. What I'm trying to do is make sure that when you go to see matches like Michigan vs ASU or PSU vs ASU thatyou see the top 5 matches that should be wrestled. That's what I'm trying to fix. I understand this will impact seeds but honestly who cares. At the end of the tournament the  best work themselves out and finish where they should. The champ will be the champ regardless.  

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1 hour ago, alabrake88 said:

That's why every match at the weight by whoever the starter is that day for the team goes towards the weight. Does not matter why you lost, couldn't wrestle, etc. Its all the same in the end. If you're out for injury and your backup sucks then so be it. If you transfer in and only wrestle half the year that was the decision you made. Solves all the issues. And wrestlers would wrestle more than 25matches a year again 

Or schools would further reduce their schedule

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