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Gable & Cael coaching

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Dan Gable took over Iowa from Gary Kurdlemeier - who had two NCAA titles in a program that had never won one before. Part of that was Dan Gable as head Assistant Coach. Under Gable the Hawkeyes won 9 straight with 9 in 13 seasons. Then a four year drought before they got back on track and ended up with 15 Titles in 21 seasons. Every year they won the Conference Title. 21 straight years.

Cael Sanderson took over Penn State and in 13 seasons has 9 titles. He took over a program that had last won the title in 1953. If we throw out 2020 when no NCAA tournament was held - he has one more year for 13 seasons to count for NCAA Titles. If you count that NoTourney year he has matched Dan Gable for overall Titles - bu not for 9 in a row. Sanderson doesn't push Conference Titles so no match for Gable there.

Impressive no matter how you put it. Do we throw out the No Tourney year and count the coming season in the comparison? Seems fair.

We are witnessing one of the greats in coaching as he has built a program for the ages. Can they keep it up?

 

 

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If you compare international results, it looks even better for Cael. It’s only a matter of time before Carl surpasses Gable, if he hasn’t already. 
 

The Big 10 is much stronger now than it used to be, so the conference title comparison isn’t really fair. If Cael were in the Big12 or EIWA, he’d win the conference every year. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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You forgot Cael's three years at Iowa State as head coach.  Those count. No titles.  In 16 years as a head coach he has 9 nattys.   Thus, he will never have 15 in 21 years as Gable did. 

And if you go by Gable's two years at Iowa as Head Assistant Coach, he won 17 nattys in 23 years.

 

Edited by HoundedHawk

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3 minutes ago, HoundedHawk said:

You forgot Cael's Iowa State years as head coach.  Those count.

And if you go by Gable's two years at Iowa as Head Assistant Coach, he won 17 nattys in 23 years.

 

How many Olympic champions has each produced (years where half the world was boycotting don’t count)? 

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6 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

How many Olympic champions has each produced (years where half the world was boycotting don’t count)? 

Idk, why don't you provide the numbers for us since it seems an important metric to you for determining which NCAA coach has had a more outstanding NCAA coaching career? While you do so, maybe consider the impact that the extra money available these days has had... A guy like David Taylor probably would have retired 4-5 years ago if he'd been wrestling in the 80s and 90s

Edited by Mr. Poopy butthole

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10 minutes ago, Mr. Poopy butthole said:

Idk, why don't you provide the numbers for us since it seems an important metric to you for determining which NCAA coach has had a more outstanding NCAA coaching career? While you do so, maybe consider the impact that the extra money available these days has had... A guy like David Taylor probably would have retired 4-5 years ago if he'd been wrestling in the 80s and 90s

2-1. It’s a fun argument to have now, but ten years from now it won’t even be a discussion. 

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I still find it hard to believe that Cael will pass Gable in total NC.  What Gable did to lift Iowa's program was remarkable. 

However, Gable had scholarship advantages that do not exist in today's 9.9 era.  Today more parity in coaching talent exists.  On top of that the money being poured into facilities and athletes has potential to rapidly destabilize the competitive environment.  

Cael's managed to catch PSU up to Iowa and had put together an astounding run.  But I suspect Iowa and some other programs will rise to frequently interrupt Cael's string of success.  I don't thinkg PSU will fall to its former depths, but Cael's successes will not approach Gable's dominance. 

 

 

Edited by swoopdown

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How many Olympic champions has each produced (years where half the world was boycotting don’t count)? 

You might want to be more specific in your cherry-picking. Like 16 countries total boycotted 1984, nowhere near half the world.

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, swoopdown said:

I still find it hard to believe that Cael will pass Gable in total NC.  What Gable did to lift Iowa's program was remarkable. 

However, Gable had scholarship advantages that do not exist in today's 9.9 era.  Today more parity in coaching talent exists.  On top of that the money being poured into facilities and athletes has potential to rapidly destabilize the competitive environment.  

Cael's managed to catch PSU up to Iowa and had put together an astounding run.  But I suspect Iowa and some other programs will rise to frequently interrupt Cael's string of success.  I don't thing PSU will fall to its former depths, but Cael's successes will not approach Gable's dominance. 

 

 

Well sure but Cael found a way around those rules but Gable went around some also.  

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26 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You might want to be more specific in your cherey-picking. Like 16 countries total boycotted 1984, nowhere near half the world.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

I was thinking the same thing, but given the dominance in wrestling of Russian bloc countries currently, is it fair to say that the 16 countries that boycotted 84 represent 50% of the medal potential?

Edit: I just answered my own question. In the 4 Olympiads the US participated in prior to their boycott (1960 - 1976), the US averaged 89.2 medals. In the five Olympiads after the USSR boycott (1988 - 2004), the US averaged 99.4 medals.

In 1984, the US had 174 medals. Making it an increse of between 75% and 95% over trend. 

Half isn't a bad approximation as it turns out.

Edited by Wrestleknownothing

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27 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I was thinking the same thing, but given the dominance in wrestling of Russian bloc countries currently, is it fair to say that the 16 countries that boycotted 84 represent 50% of the medal potential?

Edit: I just answered my own question. In the 4 Olympiads the US participated in prior to their boycott (1960 - 1976), the US averaged 89.2 medals. In the five Olympiads after the USSR boycott (1988 - 2004), the US averaged 99.4 medals.

In 1984, the US had 174 medals. Making it an increse of between 75% and 95% over trend. 

Half isn't a bad approximation as it turns out.

Yep. Realistically more than half of the medal contenders in each bracket likely sat out in 1984. That’s how dominant the Soviet block countries were (and to some extent still are).   I just hope the best Russian wrestlers find a way to compete for a different country in 2024. 
 

I wanted to make the point that while Cael hasn’t caught Gable yet in NCAA results (it’s inevitable that he will), factoring in international results puts them about even in my opinion. It’s like comparing Lombardi to Belichick or Brady to Montana though. Both are great, but there is an inevitability to Cael becoming the greatest.
 

Part of it is that he is chasing the mark Gable set. Part of it is that just like how Gable created “Iowa Style” and evolved the sport, Cael has pushed it an even greater step forward with the PSU ankle pick style (by this I mean transitioning from collar ties to low shots, even if not every shot is a traditional ankle pick). 

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Carl is a great coach but he couldn’t win at Iowa state on coaching merits. He went where he had better resources at his disposal. 
 

gable stayed out and not only won, he created today’s wrestling. 
 

if Carl manages anything at this point it will be to destroy wrestling the way it’s being contested. 

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2 minutes ago, scribe said:

Carl is a great coach but he couldn’t win at Iowa state on coaching merits. He went where he had better resources at his disposal. 
 

gable stayed out and not only won, he created today’s wrestling. 
 

if Carl manages anything at this point it will be to destroy wrestling the way it’s being contested. 

Do tell. What is Cael Sanderson doing that is destroying wrestling?

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Yep. Realistically more than half of the medal contenders in each bracket likely sat out in 1984. That’s how dominant the Soviet block countries were (and to some extent still are).   I just hope the best Russian wrestlers find a way to compete for a different country in 2024. 
 

I wanted to make the point that while Cael hasn’t caught Gable yet in NCAA results (it’s inevitable that he will), factoring in international results puts them about even in my opinion. It’s like comparing Lombardi to Belichick or Brady to Montana though. Both are great, but there is an inevitability to Cael becoming the greatest.
 

Part of it is that he is chasing the mark Gable set. Part of it is that just like how Gable created “Iowa Style” and evolved the sport, Cael has pushed it an even greater step forward with the PSU ankle pick style (by this I mean transitioning from collar ties to low shots, even if not every shot is a traditional ankle pick). 

I firmly agree that if you remove some of Gable's wrestlers successes from the ledger, then he will have fewer successes on his ledger.  Solid point.

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59 minutes ago, scribe said:

gable stayed out and not only won, he created today’s wrestling. 

This is objectively false. Gable created a style that worked in his day but which has been supplanted by Cael's style. Today's wrestling that wins is Sanderson's style.

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9 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

This is objectively false. Gable created a style that worked in his day but which has been supplanted by Cael's style. Today's wrestling that wins is Sanderson's style.

You beat me to it.  Two different styles...of both wrestling and training....Gable vs. Cael (others can call him Carl if the like) would be interesting though.

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Indeed. The concept of scoring points only emerged circa 2009. The champions of old like Ironside, Brands twins, Lincoln, Davis, Lewis, Banach, etc were vaunted for their stingy defense and low risk approach. Thank goodness we've left the dark ages behind and have learned some actual takedowns

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4 hours ago, swoopdown said:

.  I don't thing PSU will fall to its former depths, but Cael's successes will not approach Gable's dominance. 

That seems like a pretty bad bet.  Cael already has 9, and will probably get his tenth next year.  Starocci and Brooks have the eligibility to be back the year after that as I believe does Kerk.  And they continue to show they can reload and coach them up.  Odds seem like if he wants to keep coaching, he'll easily at least "approach" Gable's 15.

Based on the OP, Cael already has the same 9/13 stretch as Gable.  Furthermore, if I'm reading the records correctly, Gable never had a run as strong as Cael's last five NCAA tournaments, with 5, 4, 3, 4, and 5 national champs, folks, that's 21 in 5 tournaments.

The thread does trigger a cool discussion.  It's intriguing how two coaches could be so dominantly successful by employing different styles in different eras -- talk about fire and ice!

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46 minutes ago, drag it said:

Cael's last five NCAA tournaments, with 5, 4, 3, 4, and 5 national champs, folks, that's 21 in 5 tournaments.

That really is quite a staggering accomplishment. 21 of the last 50 individual individual champions? 

I have nothing to contribute to the Gable vs Cael debate. I just find that stat to be impressive. 

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Different eras, so you can’t really have an apples-to-apples comparison.  Both are exceptional individuals.

I think Gable was only 48 when he stepped down from the HC job at Iowa.  I wonder if Cael steps down at a relatively young age as well.

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Shouldn’t we take into account where the program was when it started? Iowa was in decent shape when Gable took over. They won the Natty before he even took over as HC. Even if you want to give Gable credit for that because he was the assistant the program was obviously in decent shape before he got there. 
 

Cael was at ISU three years as HC and finished 2, 5, 3. How do you figure he wouldn’t have won there? Same kind of success as PSU? Probably not, but they were certainly on track to win. 
 

When he got to Penn State what was the status of the program? When’s the last time they competed for a CONFERENCE championship, let alone a Natty. Second year under Cael they win it all and rattle off four in a row. 

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What Gable did was and is impressive. Gable revolutionized wrestling by teaching dominance and being in better shape than your opponent. Cael took what Gable did and added technique and unmatched offense. So to me you don’t have Cael to the level of dominance without Gable laying the groundwork… all this from the standpoint of a non PSU or Iowa fan.


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