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jackwebster

"Wrestle," "lutte," "کشتی گرفتن," "бороться"

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I'm working on something and need help from the international board.

In American English "wrestling" has its origins in the Norse verb meaning to "bend, twist, or turn."  "To wrestle" became nearly synonymous with "to grapple or struggle with," in the sense of "come to terms with." The word has since developed connections with play acting, fraud, s&m, homoeroticism, toxic masculinity, etc.

So what does "wrestle" mean in other languages, in what situations is it used, what are some famous uses? e.g. "the art of living is more like wrestling than dancing." Marcus Aurelius or "There are people who think that wrestling is an ignoble sport. Wrestling is not sport, it is a spectacle, and it is no more ignoble to attend a wrestled performance of suffering than a performance of the sorrows of Arnolphe or Andromaque" Roland Barthes

 

Edited by jackwebster

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So, i'm trying to write a scene with this elaborate, polyglottal, Pynchon/Coen-esque pun on "wrestling," but I barely got hold of big-city ... err Tulsa ... American. Can't we crowd source this? I'm begging you cause showing up at the local Russian consulate is gonna go over like a fart in church.

Edited by jackwebster

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It's Koshti in Persian. I'm far from a linguist but Kosht means "to kill". No idea if they are related or just sound similar (the word for lion and milk in Persian are also the exact same but unrelated, for example), maybe some of the others would know. I have to assume there is at least some connection. 

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Germans call wrestling "ringen," like being in the ring or circle.  In Swedish it's brottning (sometimes translated as "tackling"), in Russian borba (simply translated meaning "fight"), lucha in Spanish, many others I've run into but forgotten.  Got me thinking and I found this site:  https://indifferentlanguages.in/word/romanian/aade20f/grappling.  

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On 4/13/2022 at 11:32 AM, Shiraz123 said:

It's Koshti in Persian. I'm far from a linguist but Kosht means "to kill". No idea if they are related or just sound similar (the word for lion and milk in Persian are also the exact same but unrelated, for example), maybe some of the others would know. I have to assume there is at least some connection. 

Thanks. Similar sounds are what I need. There's a germ of joke here. 

Edited by jackwebster

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I did not know the answer, so I did some research, and learned something new

نام کشتی از کمربندی به نام کُستی گرفته شده که پارسیان و زرتشتیان هنگام غروب آفتاب به کمر خود می‌بستند و در برابر کانون آتش به دعا خواندن می‌پرداختند. کشتی گرفتن به معنی کمر یکدیگر را گرفتن است. اصل آن در زبان پهلوی، کُستیک و در زبان فارسی دری گُشتی خوانده می‌شود.

این کمربند که زرتشتیان آن را «بندرین» نیز می‌نامند، کمربندی است با ۷۲ نخ که از پشم گوسفند توسط زن موبدی بافته می‌شود. ۷۲ به شش رشته تقسیم می‌گردد و هر دسته دوازده نخ دارد که هفتاد و دو اشاره دارد به هفتاد و دو فصل یسنا (یکی از بخش‌های اوستا) و دوازده به دوازده ماه سال و شش اشاره دارد به شش گاهنبار (حبش‌های دینی سال). کستی را سه بار برکمر می‌بستند که یادآور سه اصل زرتشت یعنی «گفتار نیک، کردار نیک و پندار نیک» بود. همچنین کشتی ورزش اصیل و متعلق به کشور ایران است

The name koshti (wreslting) is derived from a belt called Casti, which the Persians and Zoroastrians wore to their waists at sunset and prayed before the focal point of fire. Wrestling means grabbing each other's waistlines. The original is in Pahlavi, Castic and Dari Gashti Persian.

The belt, also known as "Bandarin", is a belt with 72 yarns woven from fleece by a chaplain woman. 72 Is divided into six strands and each category has twelve threads, which refers to seventy-two chapters of Yasna (one of the parts of Avesta) and twelve to twelve months of the year and six refers to the six Gahanbars (religious habashes of the year). Casti was tied up three times by Berkmer, reminiscent of three Zoroastrian principles: "good speech, good deeds, and good thought." Also wrestling is a noble sport belonging to Iran

Source: کشتی (ورزش) - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد (wikipedia.org)

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On 4/12/2022 at 8:09 AM, jackwebster said:

I'm working on something and need help from the international board.

In American English "wrestling" has its origins in the Norse verb meaning to "bend, twist, or turn."  "To wrestle" became nearly synonymous with "to grapple or struggle with," in the sense of "come to terms with." The word has since developed connections with play acting, fraud, s&m, homoeroticism, toxic masculinity, etc.

So what does "wrestle" mean in other languages, in what situations is it used, what are some famous uses? e.g. "the art of living is more like wrestling than dancing." Marcus Aurelius or "There are people who think that wrestling is an ignoble sport. Wrestling is not sport, it is a spectacle, and it is no more ignoble to attend a wrestled performance of suffering than a performance of the sorrows of Arnolphe or Andromaque" Roland Barthes

 

The only semi related wrestling proverb that is commonly used in iran is (and forgive my poor translation)  "he is standing outside the mat, and says take a single leg"  The proverb is often used when someone gives instructions without fully grasping the complexity of the situation  کنار گود نشسته میگه لنگش کن (tahlilak.com)

Also, Wrestling is quite prominent in Shahnameh, arguably the most famous mythology book in Persian  (PDF) Wrestling in the Shahnameh and Later Persian Epics | Houchang Chehabi - Academia.edu

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@jackwebster we await the racism angle you will surely bring up with the aim to further educate.  Make sure you bring in examples from all races and ethnicities - don’t leave yourself open to your doppelgänger accusing you of bias and insensitivity.

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32 minutes ago, nom said:

@jackwebster we await the racism angle you will surely bring up with the aim to further educate.  Make sure you bring in examples from all races and ethnicities - don’t leave yourself open to your doppelgänger accusing you of bias and insensitivity.

?

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On 4/28/2022 at 4:48 AM, irani said:

 

Also, Wrestling is quite prominent in Shahnameh, arguably the most famous mythology book in Persian  (PDF) Wrestling in the Shahnameh and Later Persian Epics | Houchang Chehabi - Academia.edu

Thank you. The article on Wrestling in Shahnameh is so interesting. I learnt a lot including a new word- avunculicide

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Sanskrit word used for wrestling is "malla-yuddha" - you can find more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malla-yuddha

Malla-yuddha (Sanskrit: मल्लयुद्ध, IAST: mallayuddha) is the traditional form of combat-wrestling originating in India.[1] It is closely related to Southeast Asian wrestling styles such as naban and is one of the two ancestors of kushti. Indian wrestling is described in the 13th century Malla Purana.

 

Additionally, malla-yuddha is divided into four categories (see below). Each yuddhan is named after Hindu gods and legendary fighters:

  • Hanumanti - concentrates on technical superiority.
  • Jambuvanti - uses locks and holds to force the opponent into submission.
  • Jarasandhi - concentrates on breaking the limbs and joints while fighting.
  • Bhimaseni - focuses on sheer strength.

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