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Mphillips

Undefeated NCAA Champ Tournament 2000-2022

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17 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Shocked that I am the only one to go with Garrett at 133.  Go back and look at what he did that season.  37-0 He flat out wrecked EVERYONE.  Which included the defending champ Brewer, who wrecked everyone the year before.  Remember, both those brackets included Cory Clark.  His one close score was 7-6 against Clark in the Finals and that was VERY misleading.  It was 3 takedowns to 1 late one and 4 escapes.  Mind you, I am supposed to be a big Iowa slappy, so if I am saying a score is misleading and going against an Iowa wrestler, that is saying something.  It was one of the most dominant seasons I can remember for having a damn strong weight class to contend with.

https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/12070/garrett-nahshon/profile

Honestly, I think RBY out-speeds him.  Also coaching factors in, and I think it's been fairly well proven that Cael and Co are the best at game planning in this modern era.

Stieber?  I think he is just better and will grind that win.  Stieber will have a size advantage on him at 133lbs (this was Garrett's 1st and only year at 133lbs, yeah?).  You don't want to be giving up a size advantage to a wrestler like Stieber.  He will punish you.

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On 4/13/2022 at 7:18 AM, Mphillips said:

Undefeated NCAA champions from 2000-2022. Not all brackets are equal, but closer than I would have imagined. Intermat threw a list out a couple days ago. I used that for reference.

Not going to try to seed this. Just thought it would be something to discuss.

2000-2022 Champ of Champs

125 lbs - Stephen Abas (Fresno State) 34-0
125 lbs - Travis Lee (Cornell) 34-0
125 lbs - Troy Nickerson (Cornell) 25-0
125 lbs - Anthony Robles (Arizona State) 36-0
125 lbs - Spencer Lee (Iowa) 12-0
125 lbs - Nick Suriano (Michigan) 16-0

133 lbs - Roman Bravo-Young (Penn State) 22-0
133 lbs - Nahshon Garrett (Cornell) 37-0
133 lbs - Logan Stieber (Ohio State) 27-0
133 lbs - Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State) 29-0
133 lbs - Jayson Ness (Minnesota) 31-0
133 lbs - Eric Juergens (Iowa) 31-0

141 lbs - Michael Lightner (Oklahoma) 41-0
141 lbs - Nate Gallick (Iowa State) 35-0
141 lbs - Derek Moore (UC Davis) 24-0
141 lbs - Kellen Russell (Michigan) 38-0
141 lbs - Kendric Maple (Oklahoma) 31-0
141 lbs - Logan Stieber (Ohio State) 29-0
141 lbs - Dean Heil (Oklahoma State) 32-0
141 lbs - Yianni Diakomihalis (Cornell) 29-0
141 lbs - Nick Lee (Penn State) 22-0

149 lbs - Yianni Diakomihalis (Cornell) 28-0
149 lbs - Austin O’Connor (North Carolina) 13-0
149 lbs - Anthony Ashnault (Rutgers) 32-0
149 lbs - Zain Retherford (Penn State) 31-0
149 lbs - Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State) 38-0
149 lbs - Frank Molinaro (Penn State) 33-0
149 lbs - Eric Larkin (Arizona State) 34-0

157 lbs - TJ Williams (Iowa) 29-0
157 lbs - Matt Gentry (Stanford) 42-0
157 lbs - Ben Cherrington (Boise State) 20-0
157 lbs - Jordan Burroughs (Nebraska) 35-0
157 lbs - JP O’Connor (Harvard) 35-0
157 lbs - Kyle Dake (Cornell) 35-0
157 lbs - Isaiah Martinez (Illinois) 35-0
157 lbs - Jason Nolf (Penn State) 27-0
157 lbs - David Carr (Iowa State) 20-0
157 lbs - Ryan Deakin (Northwestern) 18-0

165 lbs - Keegan O’Toole (Missouri) 25-0
165 lbs - Alex Dieringer (Oklahoma State) 33-0
165 lbs - David Taylor (Penn State) 34-0
165 lbs - Kyle Dake (Cornell) 37-0
165 lbs - David Taylor (Penn State) 32-0
165 lbs - Jordan Burroughs (Nebraska) 36-0
165 lbs - Matt Lackey (Illinois) 38-0

174 lbs - Byron Tucker (Oklahoma) 34-0
174 lbs - Josh Koscheck (Edinboro) 42-0
174 lbs - Ben Askren (Missouri) 45-0
174 lbs - Keith Gavin (Pittsburgh) 27-0
174 lbs - Steve Luke (Michigan) 32-0
174 lbs - Jay Borschel (Iowa) 37-0
174 lbs - Jon Reader (Iowa State) 39-0
174 lbs - Ed Ruth (Penn State) 31-0
174 lbs - Zahid Valencia (Arizona State) 32-0
174 lbs - Carter Starocci (Penn State) 23-0

184 lbs - Aaron Brooks (Penn State) 14-0
184 lbs - Bo Nickal (Penn State) 31-0
184 lbs - Ed Ruth (Penn State) 33-0
184 lbs - Jake Herbert (Northwestern) 34-0
184 lbs - Greg Jones (West Virginia) 25-0
184 lbs - Cael Sanderson (Iowa State) 40-0

197 lbs - Cael Sanderson (Iowa State) 39-0
197 lbs - Jake Varner (Iowa State) 31-0
197 lbs - Quentin Wright (Penn State) 32-0
197 lbs - J’den Cox (Missouri) 28-0
197 lbs - Bo Nickal (Penn State) 30-0

285 lbs - Gable Steveson (Minnesota) 18-0
285 lbs - Kyle Snyder (Ohio State) 17-0
285 lbs - Nick Gwiazdowski (NC State) 32-0
285 lbs - Cole Konrad (Minnesota) 41-0
285 lbs - Steve Mocco (Oklahoma State) 37-0
 

I would go with 

125 - S Abas

133 -  E Juergans

141 - L Stieber

149 - Yianni

157 - JB

165 - Dake

174 - Askren

184 - Cael

197 - Cael

Hvywt - Gable

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6 hours ago, Idaho said:

Yep I get it - the part I highlighted was Steiber being bullied all over the mat because he had wrestled a lower weight internationally.  Two examples off the top of my head - Kyle Dake - down from 165-163 (then up again) - Cox down to 86 kg from 197 after being undersized at 214. . 

Logan was a small 141, which is evidenced by him wrestling at 61kg during his international career after college.  He did not have the same success at 65kg when he tried to compete there because 61kg was a non-Olympic weight.  Imo he would have a tough time in a folk match against Lee, who is a bigger 141.  Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase, "bullied all over the  mat," but Nick takes that match comfortably.  Nick is a lot better on his feet, Logan is too small to turn him, and I think Nick could ride Logan out from the top position.  Would probably be a 5-2 type of match where Nick is never threatened.  

Your examples of Dake and Cox do nothing to refute what I was saying about Steiber.  Dake dropping from 165lbs to 74kg is negligible.  When Cox cut to 86kg, that was insane and he only did it to make an Olympic and World Team because the 92kg class didn't exist at the time.   Besides that, Dake and Cox are significantly better wrestlers than Logan.

Edited by ShakaAloha
typo

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31 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Honestly, I think RBY out-speeds him.  Also coaching factors in, and I think it's been fairly well proven that Cael and Co are the best at game planning in this modern era.

Stieber?  I think he is just better and will grind that win.  Stieber will have a size advantage on him at 133lbs (this was Garrett's 1st and only year at 133lbs, yeah?).  You don't want to be giving up a size advantage to a wrestler like Stieber.  He will punish you.

Really?  I would ask you to go back and watch some of those matches if you can find them.  Garrett was REALLY fast and physical as well.  He probably should have been up at 133 a year sooner.  As good as he was at 125, he made a HUGE jump at 133.  

As far as coaching goes, I agree that PSU is really good at game planning, but Cornell has done a really good job at getting their best guys to the finish line as well.  Especially if they are in the Finals match itself.  Don't forget a much less heralded Bosak pulled one off against Wright as well.  

Since 2010:

Yianni is 3 for 3 in Finals appearances

Max Dean was 0-1 in Finals, but he did upset Martin that season to even get there

Gabe Dean was 2 for 3.  

Garrett was 1 for 2

Realbuto was 0 for 1  Definitely a bit out of his range with IMar though in the Finals

Dake was 4 for 4

Simaz was 1 for 1

Bosak was 1 for 1

Lewnes was 0 for 1

 

12 out of 17 is pretty damn good overall.  Especially when Realbuto was a huge underdog.  Only loss that even could possibly be considered an upset is Gabe Dean and a lot went into that match...

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4 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Really?  I would ask you to go back and watch some of those matches if you can find them.  Garrett was REALLY fast and physical as well.  He probably should have been up at 133 a year sooner.  As good as he was at 125, he made a HUGE jump at 133.  

As far as coaching goes, I agree that PSU is really good at game planning, but Cornell has done a really good job at getting their best guys to the finish line as well.  Especially if they are in the Finals match itself.  Don't forget a much less heralded Bosak pulled one off against Wright as well.  

Since 2010:

Yianni is 3 for 3 in Finals appearances

Max Dean was 0-1 in Finals, but he did upset Martin that season to even get there

Gabe Dean was 2 for 3.  

Garrett was 1 for 2

Realbuto was 0 for 1  Definitely a bit out of his range with IMar though in the Finals

Dake was 4 for 4

Simaz was 1 for 1

Bosak was 1 for 1

Lewnes was 0 for 1

 

12 out of 17 is pretty damn good overall.  Especially when Realbuto was a huge underdog.  Only loss that even could possibly be considered an upset is Gabe Dean and a lot went into that match...

RBY is the 2022 update of Nashon.  Imo he beats Nashon in a close one.

Cornell under Koll were tough in the finals.  Second only to Cael/PSU in terms of delivering on the big stage.  Let's hope Grey can keep it going.  

Also, it blows my mind how many guys are picking Robles to win 125.  He has by far the worst resume of all the guys listed...3x AA/1x finalist/1x champ.  Everyone else on the 125 list but him and Troy are multiple time champs, and Troy was a 4x AA/2x finalist/1x champ.  

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5 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Really?  I would ask you to go back and watch some of those matches if you can find them.  Garrett was REALLY fast and physical as well.  He probably should have been up at 133 a year sooner.  As good as he was at 125, he made a HUGE jump at 133.  

As far as coaching goes, I agree that PSU is really good at game planning, but Cornell has done a really good job at getting their best guys to the finish line as well.  Especially if they are in the Finals match itself.  Don't forget a much less heralded Bosak pulled one off against Wright as well.  

Since 2010:

Yianni is 3 for 3 in Finals appearances

Max Dean was 0-1 in Finals, but he did upset Martin that season to even get there

Gabe Dean was 2 for 3.  

Garrett was 1 for 2

Realbuto was 0 for 1  Definitely a bit out of his range with IMar though in the Finals

Dake was 4 for 4

Simaz was 1 for 1

Bosak was 1 for 1

Lewnes was 0 for 1

 

12 out of 17 is pretty damn good overall.  Especially when Realbuto was a huge underdog.  Only loss that even could possibly be considered an upset is Gabe Dean and a lot went into that match...

Gameplanning =/= Coaching.  Coaching is everything behind the scenes that makes a team good, better, great, or transcendent... or lackthereof.

And actually looking at it, I suppose you could argue that Koll and Co is a rather opposite than Cael and Co.  Cael and Co gameplan to neutralize their opponents strengths.  Koll and Co gameplan to maximize their own wrestlers strengths.  From their it all depends on people's own personal viewing preferences.  In those respects I would say that all around the gameplanning capabilities is comparable at worst.

When it comes to coaching, there hasn't been a better display of it than what Cael and Co are doing.  That is irrefutable and it extends to what they are doing for athletes after college as well.

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39 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Gameplanning =/= Coaching.  Coaching is everything behind the scenes that makes a team good, better, great, or transcendent... or lackthereof.

And actually looking at it, I suppose you could argue that Koll and Co is a rather opposite than Cael and Co.  Cael and Co gameplan to neutralize their opponents strengths.  Koll and Co gameplan to maximize their own wrestlers strengths.  From their it all depends on people's own personal viewing preferences.  In those respects I would say that all around the gameplanning capabilities is comparable at worst.

When it comes to coaching, there hasn't been a better display of it than what Cael and Co are doing.  That is irrefutable and it extends to what they are doing for athletes after college as well.

Cornell doesn’t remotely recruit as well. But they coach up as well as anyone there os period. I agree that PSU has proven more than anyone. But, picking PSU over a Cornell wrestler simply because is folly. Cornell has proven that they can get therejust as often as PSU with the same level of talent, and probably with less.

Overallt, I agree that I would pick PSU every single time. But to act like they are guaranteed individual just isn’t correct. 

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21 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Cornell doesn’t remotely recruit as well. But they coach up as well as anyone there os period. I agree that PSU has proven more than anyone. But, picking PSU over a Cornell wrestler simply because is folly. Cornell has proven that they can get therejust as often as PSU with the same level of talent, and probably with less.

Overallt, I agree that I would pick PSU every single time. But to act like they are guaranteed individual just isn’t correct. 

I didn't act like they were guaranteed every single individual matchup?

RBY would beat Garrett.  That is a simple opinion.  My reasoning is that one of Garrett's greatest strength, his speed, isn't as good as RBY's speed.  Now factor in that Garrett has always been willing to put himself in to awkward positions that he could get out of due to speed... that would undo him against RBY.  Garrett made a lot of mistakes that RBY would capitalize on due to discipline, which has been instilled in him due to his coaching.

The match never happened and if it did happen today, RBY would embarrass him.  Freestyle or folkstyle right now.

 

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13 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I didn't act like they were guaranteed every single individual matchup?

RBY would beat Garrett.  That is a simple opinion.  My reasoning is that one of Garrett's greatest strength, his speed, isn't as good as RBY's speed.  Now factor in that Garrett has always been willing to put himself in to awkward positions that he could get out of due to speed... that would undo him against RBY.  Garrett made a lot of mistakes that RBY would capitalize on due to discipline, which has been instilled in him due to his coaching.

The match never happened and if it did happen today, RBY would embarrass him.  Freestyle or folkstyle right now.

 

It’s all good. I respect and appreciate your opinion….Even if it is terribly wrong!  ;)

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