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Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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47 minutes ago, jp157 said:

because they wrestle very well. Die to the fact that 195 and 220 are the weights where being a few pounds underweight matters the least after heavyweight. 

Well I think that’s a different subject — I think you’re more talking about the level of competition than the effect of cutting weight for that particular.  But most (albeit not all) high school kids that weigh 205+ can probably stand to lose 10+ pounds without it impacting their performance (and probably improving it if if leads to them being in better shape)

Edited by 1032004

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I get the feeling that if there were a large data set with these athletes fatalities related to dehydration/rapid cycling vs weight class target, it would become clear that it's not the chubby 200+ kids cutting that's the problem.

It's most likely your 100-140lb kids who are most risk from these dangerous practices.
 

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1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

I get the feeling that if there were a large data set with these athletes fatalities related to dehydration/rapid cycling vs weight class target, it would become clear that it's not the chubby 200+ kids cutting that's the problem.

It's most likely your 100-140lb kids who are most risk from these dangerous practices.
 

I’m aware I’m not your favorite person. But that is exactly why I tried to establish the verbiage

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Just now, Mike Parrish said:

What does that mean?

The post I made about how there is a distinct difference between “weight management” and “weight cutting”. 
 

People keep trying to conflate the two to quibble or indirectly excuse unhealthy practices 

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17 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Well I think that’s a different subject — I think you’re more talking about the level of competition than the effect of cutting weight for that particular.  But most (albeit not all) high school kids that weigh 205+ can probably stand to lose 10+ pounds without it impacting their performance (and probably improving it if if leads to them being in better shape)

If they lose weight, they lose weight, the attitude they have to or should go to a lower weight class bleeds into the stupid practices and dangerous crap 

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6 minutes ago, jp157 said:

The post I made about how there is a distinct difference between “weight management” and “weight cutting”. 
 

People keep trying to conflate the two to quibble or indirectly excuse unhealthy practices 

OK

On the topic of matside weighins, weight management is unaffected, since it's a long term effort.
Weight cutting is made prohibitively difficult.

Would you agree?

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8 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

OK

On the topic of matside weighins, weight management is unaffected, since it's a long term effort.
Weight cutting is made prohibitively difficult.

Would you agree?

Mostly, it’s not the magic fix a lot think. I actually would do fine because I don’t let my team cut and I’m borderline ruthless about bumping kids up. My team lifts too. 

much like with adopting freestyle, I think people underestimating, ignorant of, and/or ignoring the actual issues that will arise in not even adopting the rules but keeping them for longer than a year or two. 

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2 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I get the feeling that if there were a large data set with these athletes fatalities related to dehydration/rapid cycling vs weight class target, it would become clear that it's not the chubby 200+ kids cutting that's the problem.

It's most likely your 100-140lb kids who are most risk from these dangerous practices.
 

I don't think a large database exists.  How many have died cutting weight in the last ten years?   Apart from young Mr Mendez, I can't think of any.

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Mat side weigh-ins will result in kids cutting weight for the initial match and then not eating or drinking all day. 

The problem with weight cutting is primarily coaching.

 

There is a pretty substantial loss of high end aerobic performance with even a couple of percentage points of body weight loss due to dehydration. It’s pretty well diagnosed in physiology journals.

 

If you’re a 140lb kid cutting to 132 and stepping on to the mat at that weight, you’re going to lose that match if your opponent is even close to your level of skill.

 

I imagine the number of kids who cut serious weight will drop drastically when people start getting crushed by people who aren’t cutting. Because that’s what will happen.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

There is a pretty substantial loss of high end aerobic performance with even a couple of percentage points of body weight loss due to dehydration. It’s pretty well diagnosed in physiology journals.

 

If you’re a 140lb kid cutting to 132 and stepping on to the mat at that weight, you’re going to lose that match if your opponent is even close to your level of skill.

 

I imagine the number of kids who cut serious weight will drop drastically when people start getting crushed by people who aren’t cutting. Because that’s what will happen.

 

 

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Are they going to step on the mat and underperform or not perform at all?  The kid will choose the former, so will most coaches if he is the best option for that weight in the lineup.  

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Are they going to step on the mat and underperform or not perform at all?  The kid will choose the former, so will most coaches if he is the best option for that weight in the lineup.  

I’m mostly thinking about the more talented kids.

Being dehydrated by 5% of body mass can result in a 30% (or greater) loss of aerobic performance.


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Trying to format multiple links in this forum software is like trying to do stamp collecting with oven mitts.



I'll grant you that deaths are relatively rare.
Injury is far, far more common and rarely reported.
I personally know of at least 6 collegiate women wrestlers who have been hospitalized for dehydration and I've seen far too many who should have been medically treated at morning weighins.

Dehydration is dangerous.
Long term rapid cycling is deleterious to your health.
Weight cutting kills all joy in this sport, driving people out early and making retention more difficult than it should be.

It adds NOTHING to the sport.
We should move away from this as quickly as possible.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mma/2015/12/11/death-weight-cutting-yang-jian-bing-mma/77143446/
https://foxillinois.com/news/nation-world/college-wrestler-dies-during-practice-from-heat-stroke-after-begging-for-water-police-say-wrestling-athlete-wrongful-death-lawsuit-kentucky-university-of-cumberlands-heat-stroke
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1834201

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11 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

The quickest way to alleviate severe weight cutting is allowing more than one point scorer per weight.  Lineups drive most severe weight cuts, not performance.

That's a fair point, particularly for duals.

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10 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Trying to format multiple links in this forum software is like trying to do stamp collecting with oven mitts.



I'll grant you that deaths are relatively rare.
Injury is far, far more common and rarely reported.
I personally know of at least 6 collegiate women wrestlers who have been hospitalized for dehydration and I've seen far too many who should have been medically treated at morning weighins.

Dehydration is dangerous.
Long term rapid cycling is deleterious to your health.
Weight cutting kills all joy in this sport, driving people out early and making retention more difficult than it should be.

It adds NOTHING to the sport.
We should move away from this as quickly as possible.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mma/2015/12/11/death-weight-cutting-yang-jian-bing-mma/77143446/
https://foxillinois.com/news/nation-world/college-wrestler-dies-during-practice-from-heat-stroke-after-begging-for-water-police-say-wrestling-athlete-wrongful-death-lawsuit-kentucky-university-of-cumberlands-heat-stroke
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1834201

Weight management is an integral part of all sports with weight classes.  No getting around it. As others have mentioned, weight classes exist for a reason.

The unfortunate death of the KY wrestler was independent of weight cutting.  In 1997, the NCAA wrestling weighins were similar to present mma weighins and to the NCAA's credit, reform has happened.  It boils down to lineups and I doubt there is a single NCAA coach that doesn't cheat  on the certification to put out the lineup they want.  When the certification first came into existence (~2010?) a top 5 team here in Colorado didn't cheat and their wrestlers were all up at least one weight.  They had at least three contenders and they all got destroyed.  The coach was a laughing stock for that.  They changed their tune the following year.

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1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

Weight management is an integral part of all sports with weight classes.  No getting around it. As others have mentioned, weight classes exist for a reason.

The unfortunate death of the KY wrestler was independent of weight cutting.  In 1997, the NCAA wrestling weighins were similar to present mma weighins and to the NCAA's credit, reform has happened.  It boils down to lineups and I doubt there is a single NCAA coach that doesn't cheat  on the certification to put out the lineup they want.  When the certification first came into existence (~2010?) a top 5 team here in Colorado didn't cheat and their wrestlers were all up at least one weight.  They had at least three contenders and they all got destroyed.  The coach was a laughing stock for that.  They changed their tune the following year.

As before, weight management != weight cutting(rapid cycling).
These two must be kept separate to have any kind of conversation.

Matside weighins addresses the cheating by changing the structure to make weight cutting useless and  counterproductive.
If you have to weighin prior to every match during the day, the ability to cheat is removed.

You can see the gradual move in this direction from USAW and UWW.
* Eliminated night before weighins
* Eliminated 2kg allowance
* Eliminated most 1 day tournaments, forcing two scratch weight weighins

I follow the senior international women's weight classes closely.
I see lots of women my daughter wrestled up 1, 2 or 3 weight classes higher these days.

I see matside weighins coming.
There's no downside to getting weight cutting out of our sport.
 

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I can see many examples on the seniir men's side as well.  Retherford, Marsteller and many more.  However, those are adults not participating in a true team sport.

Matside weighins will not accomplish what you want because participation will trump performance.  Most kids, particularly knuckle headed wrestlers,  would rather harm themselves than ride the pine and most coaches are unwilling to tell them they can't do that.

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

I can see many examples on the seniir men's side as well.  Retherford, Marsteller and many more.  However, those are adults not participating in a true team sport.

Matside weighins will not accomplish what you want because participation will trump performance.  Most kids, particularly knuckle headed wrestlers,  would rather harm themselves than ride the pine and most coaches are unwilling to tell them they can't do that.

As always, if you want to effect real change, send in the accountants and insurance brokers.

Something as simple as changing the USAW sponsored insurance to remove liability coverage for coaches whose athletes are injured by rapid cycling would likely bring about wholesale change in a few years.

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11 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

As always, if you want to effect real change, send in the accountants and insurance brokers.

Something as simple as changing the USAW sponsored insurance to remove liability coverage for coaches whose athletes are injured by rapid cycling would likely bring about wholesale change in a few years.

How would that be enforced 

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17 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I have confidence that coaches and athletes will be able to master the complexities of "wrestle at a weight class where you can eat and drink during the tournament".
Add in check scales around the facility and we're golden.

The reason I lack the same confidence has to do with the fact that these are the same coaches.  I am not arguing not moving in the right direction and it will not happen overnight, I’m just not sold on this being the answer.

Also, with check in scales everywhere, a lot of focus will be on kids constantly checking weight, instead of preparing for a match.  The focus will still be on weight, which is what we are trying to shift from.   It needs to be a cultural shift and unfortunately there is no quick fox for that.  We’ve been moving in the right direction, but there is still a ways to go.

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16 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

The reason I lack the same confidence has to do with the fact that these are the same coaches.  I am not arguing not moving in the right direction and it will not happen overnight, I’m just not sold on this being the answer.

Also, with check in scales everywhere, a lot of focus will be on kids constantly checking weight, instead of preparing for a match.  The focus will still be on weight, which is what we are trying to shift from.   It needs to be a cultural shift and unfortunately there is no quick fox for that.  We’ve been moving in the right direction, but there is still a ways to go.

I'm all ears for a proposal that moves us in a better direction.
I just can't find a better one.

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44 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

USAW asks their insurance broker for a different insurance package that specifically excludes liability coverage of the coach for an athlete dehydration injury.

How would one prove its not because of wrestling a match or the kid not listening.. 

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14 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Dehydration is dangerous.
Long term rapid cycling is deleterious to your health.

Anecdote alert: One of my former wrestlers cut pretty hard in high school and made an insane cut in college to start. 10 years later the dude is on dialysis and needs a kidney. Don't think this doesn't keep me up at night. 

Edited by jackwebster

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