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Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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10 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Anecdote alert: One of my former wrestlers cut pretty hard in high school and made an insane cut in college to start. 10 years later the dude is on dialysis and needs a kidney. Do think that this doesn't keep me up at night. 

Rapid cycling has been incontrovertibly shown in medical literature to be nephrotoxic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8229569/

 

Quote

5. Conclusions

Rapid weight loss is associated with significant acute kidney damage in combat sport athletes. It seems that elevated biomarkers of kidney function can be primarily attributed to intentional dehydration, which is the culprit of rapid weight loss.

 

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3 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Who has the burden of proof there?

Considering the way an average tournament can go and the pervasiveness of old school attitudes. I’m actually surprised you think this would work the way you think

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5 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Considering the way an average tournament can go and the pervasiveness of old school attitudes. I’m actually surprised you think this would work the way you think

Do you have any concrete examples of what you're vaguely referencing here?

I think matside weighins fixes most of the underlying problem.
I think an insurance carveout to deny liability coverage for coaches who have an athlete with a dehydration injury fixes another part.
A further step could be to add 'dehydration injury' to the list of things that get you on USAW's coaching 'suspension list'.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better.
It's better to take some steps than throw our hands up in the air and lament that 'it will always be this way'...

Edited by Mike Parrish

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2 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Do you have any concrete examples of what you're vaguely referencing here?

I think matside weighins fixes most of the underlying problem.
I think an insurance carveout to deny liability coverage for coaches who have an athlete with a dehydration injury fixes another part.
A further step could be to add 'dehydration injury' to the list of things that get you on USAW's coaching 'suspension list'.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better.
It's better to take some steps than throw our hands up in the air and lament that 'it will always be this way'...

I’m not just throwing up my hands. I’m staying the actual issues. How would you prove a kid had a “dehydration” injury caused by dehydration after theirs 4th-5th match.. 

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1 minute ago, jp157 said:

I’m not just throwing up my hands. I’m staying the actual issues. How would you prove a kid had a “dehydration” injury caused by dehydration after theirs 4th-5th match.. 

Sounds like a job for a medical professional.

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3 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Thanks for the link. I wonder how many of us are just waiting for the other show to drop.

I'm sorry about your athlete.
That must be very tough.

We all did this dangerous behavior.
Coaches, athletes, everyone.

I see a path to get wrestling to a better place.

Edited by Mike Parrish

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Let's try to be more clear on this topic.

We're not talking about long term weight management here.
We're talking about dangerous dehydration to make weight.

I've seen a world medalist who had to be carried to the scale because they could no longer walk.
I've seen an Olympian crying on the floor of a hotel workout room, curled into a fetal ball, being comforted by another athlete.
I've seen collegiate athletes hospitalized at WCWAs.
I've seen elite level athletes quit the sport because of this stuff.

We have to do better.

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2 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

We have concussion protocols for wrestling that are administered on site.

Something similar for dehydration should work.

Again, how would that be diagnosed in any way comparable to concussion protocol..

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1 minute ago, jp157 said:

You’re literally doing a hand wave and acting like I’m bro g unreasonable

You seem to want me to pull a medical degree out of my ass.

If you asked me how we should implement concussion protocols, my answer would be the same.

If USAW decided to go this route, they'd hire medical professionals to develop a protocol to detect dehydration in a competition setting.
 

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3 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

You seem to want me to pull a medical degree out of my ass.

If you asked me how we should implement concussion protocols, my answer would be the same.

If USAW decided to go this route, they'd hire medical professionals to develop a protocol to detect dehydration in a competition setting.
 

There was such a thing as concussion protocol and on site ways to evaluate before it became procedure… 

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2 minutes ago, jp157 said:

There was such a thing as concussion protocol and on site ways to evaluate before it became procedure… 

There are extant medical diagnosis procedures for dehydration.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

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5 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

There are extant medical diagnosis procedures for dehydration.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

Again, how would you prove it’s the coaches fault. 

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Just now, jp157 said:

Again, how would you prove it’s the coaches fault. 

Again, you wouldn't have to.

Insurance simply wouldn't cover the coach.
It could be as simple as, "An athlete on the team you coach was found to be dangerously dehydrated. If you're sued, we will not cover that liability."

There's no 'proof' of coaches' liability needed.

I'm not saying this is how it will (or even should) shake out, I'm saying that there are ways to make dangerous dehydration less desirable for everyone by changing the underlying environment in which wrestling works.

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20 hours ago, jp157 said:

The post I made about how there is a distinct difference between “weight management” and “weight cutting”. 
 

People keep trying to conflate the two to quibble or indirectly excuse unhealthy practices 

its amazing how people who say they are smart can't read

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3 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Again, you wouldn't have to.

Insurance simply wouldn't cover the coach.
It could be as simple as, "An athlete on the team you coach was found to be dangerously dehydrated. If you're sued, we will not cover that liability."

There's no 'proof' of coaches' liability needed.

I'm not saying this is how it will (or even should) shake out, I'm saying that there are ways to make dangerous dehydration less desirable for everyone by changing the underlying environment in which wrestling works.

Then say goodbye to over half the coaches, if not more,  leave because they’ll be liable the same way, no matter what the situation is…

whether it’s a kid wrestling multiple matches in a day and crap happens.. because it’s wrestling 

or whether they actually have kids cutting weight..

And before you go “well good riddance to old school coaches practicing dangerous habits”.. 

the type of coach who actually understands the liability involved here, and the risk they’re at just for coaching wrestling. With your “proposal”. Is usually the type of coach who is less likely to let their team cut weight. So your proposal actually endangers keeping the coaches who are cracking down on cutting weight.. why would they risk coaching if they are covered and/or they’re liable because of a random injury and the kid registers as dehydrated.. because he didn’t drink enough throughout the day despite many reminders..

It’s quite obvious you didn’t actually think through this solution or the actual ramifications. 

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8 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Do you have any concrete examples of what you're vaguely referencing here?

I think matside weighins fixes most of the underlying problem.
I think an insurance carveout to deny liability coverage for coaches who have an athlete with a dehydration injury fixes another part.
A further step could be to add 'dehydration injury' to the list of things that get you on USAW's coaching 'suspension list'.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better.
It's better to take some steps than throw our hands up in the air and lament that 'it will always be this way'...

So you’re conceding here that with matside weigh-ins we could see “dehydration injuries,” correct?

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So you’re conceding here that with matside weigh-ins we could see “dehydration injuries,” correct?

I really can't see how you read that.

I have been discussing multiple paths to prevent dangerous weight cutting.
They aren't dependent on each other.

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3 hours ago, jp157 said:

Then say goodbye to over half the coaches, if not more,  leave because they’ll be liable the same way, no matter what the situation is…

whether it’s a kid wrestling multiple matches in a day and crap happens.. because it’s wrestling 

or whether they actually have kids cutting weight..

And before you go “well good riddance to old school coaches practicing dangerous habits”.. 

the type of coach who actually understands the liability involved here, and the risk they’re at just for coaching wrestling. With your “proposal”. Is usually the type of coach who is less likely to let their team cut weight. So your proposal actually endangers keeping the coaches who are cracking down on cutting weight.. why would they risk coaching if they are covered and/or they’re liable because of a random injury and the kid registers as dehydrated.. because he didn’t drink enough throughout the day despite many reminders..

It’s quite obvious you didn’t actually think through this solution or the actual ramifications. 

Once again, you seem to be looking for a fight.

I didn't say any of that. You're trying to put words in my mouth.

Perhaps it would be best if you just put me on ignore.

There doesn't seem to be a way to rationally discuss things with you.

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