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Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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4 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

I really can't see how you read that.

I have been discussing multiple paths to prevent dangerous weight cutting.
They aren't dependent on each other.

So then with matside weigh-ins we wouldn’t need to add the insurance carveout for dehydration injuries?

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9 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So then with matside weigh-ins we wouldn’t need to add the insurance carveout for dehydration injuries?

Independent courses of potential changes.

I'm suggesting a way forward, not trying to dictate a course of action.
We clearly need to do something different and better.

Edited by Mike Parrish

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10 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Rapid cycling has been incontrovertibly shown in medical literature to be nephrotoxic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8229569/

 

 

Curious to know how pervasive this is-- or if anyone knows. One kid cutting and then having issues is surely not scientific proof. I would think many other kids cut hard and did not end up pn dialysis. I AM NOT DEFENDING massive cuts. But is there any proof that those who do it generally have health problems later in life or that there is cause and effect?

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3 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Curious to know how pervasive this is-- or if anyone knows. One kid cutting and then having issues is surely not scientific proof. I would think many other kids cut hard and did not end up pn dialysis. I AM NOT DEFENDING massive cuts. But is there any proof that those who do it generally have health problems later in life or that there is cause and effect?

The sample size is called out in the study.

The search string     'wrestling "dehydration" "athlete" site:nih.gov' returns a lot of results.
 

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1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

The sample size is called out in the study.

The search string     'wrestling "dehydration" "athlete" site:nih.gov' returns a lot of results.
 

I skimmed the study you cited-- did not read carefully-- and surely did not understand all of what I read. But it did not seem to track health problems that occurred a decade later. And apart from the sample size issue, how can you really trust the wrestlers to honestly report their weight cuts. Some might exaggerate to seem like heroes. Others  might minimize to show they were champs despite little of no cutting. Other might not remember. Seem akin to asking college kids how many girls they made out with.

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7 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Once again, you seem to be looking for a fight.

I didn't say any of that. You're trying to put words in my mouth.

Perhaps it would be best if you just put me on ignore.

There doesn't seem to be a way to rationally discuss things with you.

I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m staying the actual real world issues with the insurance idea… you keep trying to hand wave it. 
 

I’ve actually kept it extremely civil. Quite frankly, if you can’t handle someone who doesn’t completely hate the idea of matside weigh ins asking basic questions and telling you actual real world issues with your solution.. good luck convincing the people who are way less on the fence. 
 

You have yet to actually give a real answer that doesn’t handwave it to vagueness and.. makes it look like you really haven’t spent time on the ground dealing with this issue beyond 1-2 athletes. Which before you say I’m being a meanie. Is a basic observation based on the responses. 
 

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7 hours ago, NJDan said:

I skimmed the study you cited-- did not read carefully-- and surely did not understand all of what I read. But it did not seem to track health problems that occurred a decade later. And apart from the sample size issue, how can you really trust the wrestlers to honestly report their weight cuts. Some might exaggerate to seem like heroes. Others  might minimize to show they were champs despite little of no cutting. Other might not remember. Seem akin to asking college kids how many girls they made out with.

 

8 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Independent courses of potential changes.

I'm suggesting a way forward, not trying to dictate a course of action.
We clearly need to do something different and better.

That seems to be avoiding the question, but whatever.  Me personally, I do think we could see “dehydration injuries” with matside weigh-ins.  So IMO, if that happens it wouldn’t be “solving the weight cutting issue.”  

I think there would also be some added secondary concerns that people aren’t really thinking of, albeit of course not as important as the wrestlers’ health.  For example, assuming they will need to weigh in with shoes/singlet/headgear, it will become a race to see who can come out with the lightest of those items, which could sacrifice safety but will also be a further advantage for rich teams/kids who will be able to afford the latest and greatest equipment.

Edit:  whoops sorry didn’t mean to quote NJDan too

Edited by 1032004

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Mat side weigh-ins are safe and fair.  This environment will change the athlete's behavior quickly and for the betterment of both the competitor and fan.  

  • ...but what about the weight-class tweeners?  You make weight or else you forfeit the match.  Adjust.  Be a better technical wrestler like Keegan O’Toole, bulk up, or lose body fat. 
  • ...but what about the weight of my singlet and shoes?  You make weight or else you forfeit the match.  Adjust.  Weigh-in with your competition singlet and shoes on.  There is no weight allowance for equipment.
  • ...but what about the natural fluctuation of weight?  You make weight or else you forfeit the match.  Adjust.  Take responsibility for your nutrition and weight-class requirements.
  • ...but what about wrestlers that now must cut weight for multiple matches?  You make weight or else you forfeit the match.  Off-the-scale lethargic wrestlers like Patrick Glory will need to adjust.  Their lethargy will cause them to lose more often, so they might want to bump up in weight.   
  • ...but Johnny is full-sized and has an advantage in his weight class.  How will Johnny stay competitive at the next weight class up?  You make weight or else you forfeit the match.  Adjust, just like your competition!  
  • ...but what about the wrestlers that still dehydrate themselves and the risk thereof?  Sometimes stupid is as stupid does. At least the environment influences the vital behaviors that lead to safer outcomes.

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There are definite dangers of dehydration. There is an electrolyte imbalance, low blood sugar, the danger of overhydration.” - Dr. Robert Cantu, director of sports medicine at Emerson Hospital in Massachusetts and a clinical professor of neurosurgery at Boston University School of Medicine.

What really illustrates the problem from a physiological standpoint is not so much the number of pounds but the amount of water that weight-cutting fighters wring out of their bodies. On average, water comprises 60 percent of total body weight. So, if a 144-pound fighter loses eight pounds of water weight as part of an effort to reach the 135-pound weight maximum, the fighter has drained 8.6 percent of the body’s water weight. 

By medical standards, any water loss of more than 5 percent is considered serious. Anything more than 10 percent is cause for a trip to the emergency room.

“Some athletes drain 10-15 percent of their water in two or three days. After that point, [medical professionals] I’ve spoken to recommend immediate hospitalization.” - Jeff Novitzky, UFC’s vice president of athlete health and performance

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11 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I really can't see how you read that.

I have been discussing multiple paths to prevent dangerous weight cutting.
They aren't dependent on each other.

you said matside weigh ins would stop the problem

but then said we need to punish coaches who still do it..

so which is it...

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11 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Once again, you seem to be looking for a fight.

I didn't say any of that. You're trying to put words in my mouth.

Perhaps it would be best if you just put me on ignore.

There doesn't seem to be a way to rationally discuss things with you.

i was going to post the same thing... 

my question was... is there a coaching shortage as it is now?

this will exacerbate it if there is...

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2 minutes ago, GockeS said:

you said matside weigh ins would stop the problem

but then said we need to punish coaches who still do it..

so which is it...

Matside weighins are one method to try to stop dangerous weight cuts.
Changes to coaching liability is a different method, not related to matside weighins.

These are independent of each other.

 

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4 hours ago, jp157 said:

I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m staying the actual real world issues with the insurance idea… you keep trying to hand wave it. 
 

I’ve actually kept it extremely civil. Quite frankly, if you can’t handle someone who doesn’t completely hate the idea of matside weigh ins asking basic questions and telling you actual real world issues with your solution.. good luck convincing the people who are way less on the fence. 
 

You have yet to actually give a real answer that doesn’t handwave it to vagueness and.. makes it look like you really haven’t spent time on the ground dealing with this issue beyond 1-2 athletes. Which before you say I’m being a meanie. Is a basic observation based on the responses. 
 

I'm not sure why you don't understand and I no longer care to try to explain it to you. Like trying to teach a pigeon to play chess.

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2 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I'm not sure why you don't understand and I no longer care to try to explain it to you. Like trying to teach a pigeon to play chess.

You want to try and make the coaches liable in a way that is vague and could get them in trouble for things that had nothing to do with weight cutting.. if you aren’t on the actual ground and around wrestling beyond being a parent.. that’s fine. It very much seems so based off how you are assuming this would work.

 

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2 hours ago, GockeS said:

i was going to post the same thing... 

my question was... is there a coaching shortage as it is now?

this will exacerbate it if there is...

Yes, there is a coaching shortage. Then a further shortage of coaches actually willing to be an adult and handle the admin side of things properly. A significant chunk just want to wrassle and beat up high schoolers, or worry only about practice, then wonder why numbers are low. They also, coincidentally, are the most likely to promote or be okay with bad practice. 

The  coaches that do actually understand the admin side are more likely to just say coaching isn’t worth it if you made a liability rule this vague. That’s even before you find out if schools with cover something that can be made not covered by something so vague. 
 

But hey, asking the reasonable obvious questions that aren’t answered by “oh like the medical professionals man” makes me a pigeon.. eye roll 

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6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 

That seems to be avoiding the question, but whatever.  Me personally, I do think we could see “dehydration injuries” with matside weigh-ins.  So IMO, if that happens it wouldn’t be “solving the weight cutting issue.”  

I think there would also be some added secondary concerns that people aren’t really thinking of, albeit of course not as important as the wrestlers’ health.  For example, assuming they will need to weigh in with shoes/singlet/headgear, it will become a race to see who can come out with the lightest of those items, which could sacrifice safety but will also be a further advantage for rich teams/kids who will be able to afford the latest and greatest equipment.

Edit:  whoops sorry didn’t mean to quote NJDan too

Never a bad idea IMHO.

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To be clear, there is NO realistic fix.  However, I applaud those trying to come up with 1.  At least you are trying.  With that said, I just don't see matside weigh-ins truly stopping the problem.  Wrestlers found a work around for the hydration rules and they would find ways around this as well.  Even if they couldn't, there is NO WAY you are getting this done at every large tournament.  Michigan just did a night before, 1 day satellite weigh-in for the ENTIRE Individual State Tournament.  This was done because of the mess that weighs in are at a venue that hosts 4 divisions for boys, plus 1 division for girls.   The tournament probably ran the best that I can ever remember in over 30 years.....

To me, the odds of this happening are similar to changing High School to Freestyle or the NCAA Team Title being decided by a Dual Format.  They are pipe dreams for the minority!

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3 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

To be clear, there is NO realistic fix.  However, I applaud those trying to come up with 1.  At least you are trying.  With that said, I just don't see matside weigh-ins truly stopping the problem.  Wrestlers found a work around for the hydration rules and they would find ways around this as well.  Even if they couldn't, there is NO WAY you are getting this done at every large tournament.  Michigan just did a night before, 1 day satellite weigh-in for the ENTIRE Individual State Tournament.  This was done because of the mess that weighs in are at a venue that hosts 4 divisions for boys, plus 1 division for girls.   The tournament probably ran the best that I can ever remember in over 30 years.....

To me, the odds of this happening are similar to changing High School to Freestyle or the NCAA Team Title being decided by a Dual Format.  They are pipe dreams for the minority!

Unlike the status quo of cramming 5 divisions of wrestlers into a wrong-sized space at the same time for weigh-ins, mat-side weigh-ins have a spacious just-in-time flow. 

Unlike satellite weigh-ins where some teams cheat in the dark, mat-side weigh-ins are transparent.  

Hydration testing is an improvement over the original status quo, however many knew how to work around it from the start.   

How can wrestlers work around the mat-side weigh-ins in a tournament, and win against top competition?

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2 minutes ago, jross said:

Unlike the status quo of cramming 5 divisions of wrestlers into a wrong-sized space at the same time for weigh-ins, mat-side weigh-ins have a spacious just-in-time flow. 

Unlike satellite weigh-ins where some teams cheat in the dark, mat-side weigh-ins are transparent.  

Hydration testing is an improvement over the original status quo, however many knew how to work around it from the start.   

How can wrestlers work around the mat-side weigh-ins in a tournament, and win against top competition?

1.)The best attendance possible for Michigan.  The venue is perfectly fine for the amount of wrestlers.  Just NO WAY, you are getting a tournament of that size done weighing in wrestlers before every match.  Pipe dream at best.

2.)It was all at one location.  It was just simply set up to be a weigh-in and a weigh-in ONLY.  I am not sure how many tournaments you have been to, let alone ran, but the logistics of a 16 team tournament can be ridiculous( I was involved with one where weigh-ins started at 7:00 and the wrestling didn't end until just before Midnight).  I couldn't even imagine running something considerably bigger like Fargo with matside weigh-ins throughout.

3.)Maybe so.  But, that doesn't disprove my argument.  There are always work arounds for any rules.

4.)  There are a myriad of ways.  1st, your argument only works if the other top competition isn't skirting at all?  Whenever there are weight classes, you will have guys trying to adjust to what works best for them.  Most "top competition" will work the "grey" areas as much as humanly possible to see what works best for them.  Many top guys will find that, at 80%, they can still beat the other top competition at 90%, or some other quantifiable variation.  Even if you can prove the science, convincing a kid that 152 is better for them when they weigh 147 and got beat by a kid they perceive wasn't as good, isn't a guarantee. 

 

Look, I said I give credit to you guys for trying.  In a vacuum, its a great solution.  However, we don't wrestle in a vacuum.  The human element is too strong with too many necessary, moving parts.  I simply don't see it happening.  But, this is one of those few cases where I would be happy to be proven wrong.  Still, I would be willing to wager we see the NCAA DI Team Title decided in a Dual Format, before we see matside weigh-ins instituted across the board(nationally) at the High School Level, let alone all of College Wrestling...

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16 hours ago, MSU158 said:

1.)The best attendance possible for Michigan.  The venue is perfectly fine for the amount of wrestlers.  Just NO WAY, you are getting a tournament of that size done weighing in wrestlers before every match.  Pipe dream at best.

2.)It was all at one location.  It was just simply set up to be a weigh-in and a weigh-in ONLY.  I am not sure how many tournaments you have been to, let alone ran, but the logistics of a 16 team tournament can be ridiculous( I was involved with one where weigh-ins started at 7:00 and the wrestling didn't end until just before Midnight).  I couldn't even imagine running something considerably bigger like Fargo with matside weigh-ins throughout.

3.)Maybe so.  But, that doesn't disprove my argument.  There are always work arounds for any rules.

4.)  There are a myriad of ways.  1st, your argument only works if the other top competition isn't skirting at all?  Whenever there are weight classes, you will have guys trying to adjust to what works best for them.  Most "top competition" will work the "grey" areas as much as humanly possible to see what works best for them.  Many top guys will find that, at 80%, they can still beat the other top competition at 90%, or some other quantifiable variation.  Even if you can prove the science, convincing a kid that 152 is better for them when they weigh 147 and got beat by a kid they perceive wasn't as good, isn't a guarantee. 

 

Look, I said I give credit to you guys for trying.  In a vacuum, its a great solution.  However, we don't wrestle in a vacuum.  The human element is too strong with too many necessary, moving parts.  I simply don't see it happening.  But, this is one of those few cases where I would be happy to be proven wrong.  Still, I would be willing to wager we see the NCAA DI Team Title decided in a Dual Format, before we see matside weigh-ins instituted across the board(nationally) at the High School Level, let alone all of College Wrestling...

+100

Weird how some take this stance as "controversial"??  

The issue of bad weight cutting is a large complex problem, but at the same time isn't, changing the culture is where real change will happen...start with parents and coaches.  Get our star athletes to campaign against bad weight cutting.  Get our premier collage coaches to campaign against bad weight cutting.  Start at the youth level and teach the kids and parents to not do bad weight cutting.  Start doing some of these things, I can guarantee we see true change...and maybe wouldn't have to go to the logistical nightmare of having mat side weigh-ins.

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You guys keep saying matside weighins are a logistical nightmare, but I don't see it.

I've coached for 40 years and have done my share of big tournaments.

I see it as part of the beginning of the match.
Both wrestlers and their coaches show up at the table to check in.

Ref says, "OK,  you're red, step on the scale. OK. OK, You're blue, step on the scale. OK" and off we got to wrestle.
Missing weight would be like showing up without your shoes.
Come ready to wrestle or forfeit that match...


Can someone explain the 'logistical nightmare' scenario?

Edited by Mike Parrish

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On the insurance angle, I also don't see much of a problem.

Good coaches would make it clear, "We don't cut weight like that on this team. Period. If I catch you doing stupid dehydration crap, you're off them team. Understand?"

I just don't see this driving large numbers of coaches out the sport.
It might drive those who can't adapt to giving up a harmful practice, but that seems like a net positive.

 

 

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