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TwoPointTakeDown

Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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18 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

The point of all of this is to mitigate drastic weight cutting. I feel it would smooth out a bit of the chaos that you might be referencing. Not that a ton of athletes blow weight now, I would imagine it would be comparable or less with a newer system. If they do miss weight. Just gotta roll with it. People will figure it out. 

At least people are offering solutions and not just grandstanding 

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In terms of adding to the duration of a tournament, the prior estimate of 2.5 extra hours for a big event would only apply if running it on one mat.  If each bout is increased by 30 seconds, the overall impact of additional time for matside weigh-ins would be about 30 minutes, and would be more than negated by not having to show up 2 hours prior to competition starting, as would not need the pre-event bulk weigh-in.  Would also support incremental allowance for each round on championship side of 0.5 pounds per round, which would equate to 2 extra pounds in finals from scratch from opening round of 32 (with corresponding increases on certain consi rounds to keep consistency).  also open to that amount being a percentage, such that 106 pounders are getting a little less than 195 pounders (ie 1/2 of one percent, rounded to nearest tenth, per round)...but I know the decimals will scare away some (just like margin of victory scoring).

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4 hours ago, davenowa said:

In terms of adding to the duration of a tournament, the prior estimate of 2.5 extra hours for a big event would only apply if running it on one mat.  If each bout is increased by 30 seconds, the overall impact of additional time for matside weigh-ins would be about 30 minutes, and would be more than negated by not having to show up 2 hours prior to competition starting, as would not need the pre-event bulk weigh-in.  Would also support incremental allowance for each round on championship side of 0.5 pounds per round, which would equate to 2 extra pounds in finals from scratch from opening round of 32 (with corresponding increases on certain consi rounds to keep consistency).  also open to that amount being a percentage, such that 106 pounders are getting a little less than 195 pounders (ie 1/2 of one percent, rounded to nearest tenth, per round)...but I know the decimals will scare away some (just like margin of victory scoring).

Ah good point, sorry.  So that is assuming 5 mats then?  I do think I was being optimistic at 20 seconds though.  The no pre-meet weigh ins are another good point, but if we’re trying to prevent people leaving tournaments at 10 PM or whatever, you’d have to start the tournament at the time when weigh ins would have otherwise started which is sometimes like 7 AM I think.

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7 hours ago, davenowa said:

In terms of adding to the duration of a tournament, the prior estimate of 2.5 extra hours for a big event would only apply if running it on one mat.  If each bout is increased by 30 seconds, the overall impact of additional time for matside weigh-ins would be about 30 minutes, and would be more than negated by not having to show up 2 hours prior to competition starting, as would not need the pre-event bulk weigh-in.  Would also support incremental allowance for each round on championship side of 0.5 pounds per round, which would equate to 2 extra pounds in finals from scratch from opening round of 32 (with corresponding increases on certain consi rounds to keep consistency).  also open to that amount being a percentage, such that 106 pounders are getting a little less than 195 pounders (ie 1/2 of one percent, rounded to nearest tenth, per round)...but I know the decimals will scare away some (just like margin of victory scoring).

Again, for most events, you would need to show up early for a check-in. Might not be exactly the same as weighin but it's not nothing.

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10 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Again, for most events, you would need to show up early for a check-in. Might not be exactly the same as weighin but it's not nothing.

You'd get rid of the strictly timed weighin period which can be a real problem in large tournaments.

I've seen teams disqualified after getting stuck in traffic.

It could become, "Show up anytime before 8AM for registration and skin check."

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7 hours ago, davenowa said:

In terms of adding to the duration of a tournament, the prior estimate of 2.5 extra hours for a big event would only apply if running it on one mat.  If each bout is increased by 30 seconds, the overall impact of additional time for matside weigh-ins would be about 30 minutes, and would be more than negated by not having to show up 2 hours prior to competition starting, as would not need the pre-event bulk weigh-in.  Would also support incremental allowance for each round on championship side of 0.5 pounds per round, which would equate to 2 extra pounds in finals from scratch from opening round of 32 (with corresponding increases on certain consi rounds to keep consistency).  also open to that amount being a percentage, such that 106 pounders are getting a little less than 195 pounders (ie 1/2 of one percent, rounded to nearest tenth, per round)...but I know the decimals will scare away some (just like margin of victory scoring).

If the weigh in takes place in the “bullpen” right before people are sent to mats then no extra time is added, but it would need a referee there.

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8 hours ago, simple said:

If the weigh in takes place in the “bullpen” right before people are sent to mats then no extra time is added, but it would need a referee there.

The referee shortage might actually present one of the biggest logistical hurdles unfortunately:/

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19 hours ago, jp157 said:

At least people are offering solutions and not just grandstanding 

Glad you addressed my point and not something that was a settled issue weeks ago. Thought you were one of those people that would let petty things monopolize your consciousness. So very proud of how you represent our community in the wake of such a tragedy to try to exact worthless revenge on a stranger, that you utterly failed at getting. Glad to see I was so very wrong. 

I look forward to your useless and petty response. Oh, wait....  

Edited by TwoPointTakeDown

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1 hour ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Glad you addressed my point and not something that was a settled issue weeks ago. Thought you were one of those people that would let petty things monopolize your consciousness. So very proud of how you represent our community in the wake of such a tragedy to try to exact worthless revenge on a stranger, that you utterly failed at getting. Glad to see I was so very wrong. 

I look forward to your useless and petty response. Oh, wait....  

You literally just used that tragedy to try to grandstand and proclaim how mean and evil I supposedly am. which further solidifies my point. 
 

Even if I think the ideas are dumb like insurance one, or have a low likelihood of success I respect them more than someone just trying to show off how noble they are.. 

You have yet to do anything beyond lament and grandstand. Get out of here with your “represent the community” crap. Your not doing a 10th of what I am on the ground so calm down buddy

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57 minutes ago, jp157 said:

You literally just used that tragedy to try to grandstand and proclaim how mean and evil I supposedly am. which further solidifies my point. 
 

Even if I think the ideas are dumb like insurance one, or have a low likelihood of success I respect them more than someone just trying to show off how noble they are.. 

You have yet to do anything beyond lament and grandstand. Get out of here with your “represent the community” crap. Your not doing a 10th of what I am on the ground so calm down buddy

Standing, grandly! 

The cost you've sunk into this thread is never as much as you seem to think. The sooner you realize this, the better. You're too emotionally invested to see clearly anymore. I started this to illustrate a very real concern with our sport. And you've mistaken the forest for the trees at every turn and you've continually spouted off about how much you've done(no actual details, just generalizations that cannot be verified, to prove that you're better than everyone on this topic). I'm sorry you feel the need to show off to prove your worth. You don't. We don't care as much as you need us to to validate yourself. Also to poke holes in, just about, every idea. Which can be a beneficial practice if done, frankly, in the polar opposite way that you've gone about it. Which makes me think its by design. Until you can deescalate and prove that you aren't as triggered, I'm going to treat you like the petulant child that you make yourself out to be or just ignore you. And do it in as grand stand-ish-type fashion as I can muster.

I took a break for a few weeks.  Was happy to see the way the conversation was headed. And the thread was slipping into obscurity, where settled conversations tend to go. That was fine with me. A tragic event sparked another wave. I made my non-grand-standy support and comments to some suggestions along with some alternatives of my own(which you ignored). Yet, you could not let things lie. 

Here is the mirror. You have no clothes. You are a bully and/or a troll. You are not helping. You are the stink bug of Marlon Bundo fame. You have no power! Stomp your feet all you want. Call me names. You are a cliché. And I'm punching down at this point, so I will bow out. 

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14 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Standing, grandly! 

The cost you've sunk into this thread is never as much as you seem to think. The sooner you realize this, the better. You're too emotionally invested to see clearly anymore. I started this to illustrate a very real concern with our sport. And you've mistaken the forest for the trees at every turn and you've continually spouted off about how much you've done(no actual details, just generalizations that cannot be verified, to prove that you're better than everyone on this topic). I'm sorry you feel the need to show off to prove your worth. You don't. We don't care as much as you need us to to validate yourself. Also to poke holes in, just about, every idea. Which can be a beneficial practice if done, frankly, in the polar opposite way that you've gone about it. Which makes me think its by design. Until you can deescalate and prove that you aren't as triggered, I'm going to treat you like the petulant child that you make yourself out to be or just ignore you. And do it in as grand stand-ish-type fashion as I can muster.

I took a break for a few weeks.  Was happy to see the way the conversation was headed. And the thread was slipping into obscurity, where settled conversations tend to go. That was fine with me. A tragic event sparked another wave. I made my non-grand-standy support and comments to some suggestions along with some alternatives of my own(which you ignored). Yet, you could not let things lie. 

Here is the mirror. You have no clothes. You are a bully and/or a troll. You are not helping. You are the stink bug of Marlon Bundo fame. You have no power! Stomp your feet all you want. Call me names. You are a cliché. And I'm punching down at this point, so I will bow out. 

Perfectly said.

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8 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Standing, grandly! 

The cost you've sunk into this thread is never as much as you seem to think. The sooner you realize this, the better. You're too emotionally invested to see clearly anymore. I started this to illustrate a very real concern with our sport. And you've mistaken the forest for the trees at every turn and you've continually spouted off about how much you've done(no actual details, just generalizations that cannot be verified, to prove that you're better than everyone on this topic). I'm sorry you feel the need to show off to prove your worth. You don't. We don't care as much as you need us to to validate yourself. Also to poke holes in, just about, every idea. Which can be a beneficial practice if done, frankly, in the polar opposite way that you've gone about it. Which makes me think its by design. Until you can deescalate and prove that you aren't as triggered, I'm going to treat you like the petulant child that you make yourself out to be or just ignore you. And do it in as grand stand-ish-type fashion as I can muster.

I took a break for a few weeks.  Was happy to see the way the conversation was headed. And the thread was slipping into obscurity, where settled conversations tend to go. That was fine with me. A tragic event sparked another wave. I made my non-grand-standy support and comments to some suggestions along with some alternatives of my own(which you ignored). Yet, you could not let things lie. 

Here is the mirror. You have no clothes. You are a bully and/or a troll. You are not helping. You are the stink bug of Marlon Bundo fame. You have no power! Stomp your feet all you want. Call me names. You are a cliché. And I'm punching down at this point, so I will bow out. 

What are you actually doing to help. And do you have any solutions to offer.

Which actual suggestions did you offer that amounted to more than coaches installing good practice. 

If I was bullying you, I’d be much meaner.. 

If I was trolling I’d do something closer to Jimmy Cinnabon. 
 

I’ve reached a point where I’m going to be blunt and call things as I see them. You just escalated one comment to screech about your supposed maturity.

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I love when someone claims someone else is to emotionally invested in a topic (as an attempt to criticize them), and then turns around and writes 3 emotional paragraphs on the topic and does the exact thing they claim the other does...oh how hypocrisy knows no bounds....

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Just now, Mike Parrish said:

I finally had to ignore him.

As I said above, trying to reason with him was like trying to teach a pigeon to play chess.

Funny part is to think you could teach anyone anything...and I'm sure he is torn up knowing the fact that you ignore him...LOL

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12 hours ago, simple said:

If the weigh in takes place in the “bullpen” right before people are sent to mats then no extra time is added, but it would need a referee there.

You wouldn't need a wrestling ref. Just another body that can read a scale

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So far the actual suggestions to help actually address weight cutting have been..

1. Insurance.. either hold coaches liable or revoke their insurance for any “dehydration” related injury.

- while it comes from a nice place. And does try to account for the fact that many coaches will do anything for short term gain

. It completely ignores that the sport is wrestling. A kid being mildly dehydrated because he’s wrestling a hard match in a hot gym could land the wrong way and a coach would be held liable, or if he’s just physically tired and gets hurt.. those are just a couple of potential scenarios… especially given kids don’t always listen when told to hydrate throughout the day.

This just seems like it’ll drive away coaches because things are already litigious enough without something like this… 

So it sounds like cutting off your head to put stitches in your arm.
 

2. Mat side weigh ins. The most common suggestion. Logistics will have to be massively adjusted and weight classes would for sure have to be adjusted both up and in distribution… 

Its doable, but the logistical issues are being somewhat handwaved

The actual issues are getting it adopted. Then keeping the rules past a year or two. Especially if it costs a big name or team. Then furthermore, getting it installed nationally, instead of state by state 

3. Make sure coaches are mentoring younger coaches on how to do it the right way. Institutional change, which requires hard work and long term planning.. i.e mental toughness. Something found only weirdly selective found in wrestling.

Now, does anyone have an actual proposal beyond these basic three? I’m genuinely curious 

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

Funny part is to think you could teach anyone anything...and I'm sure he is torn up knowing the fact that you ignore him...LOL

He literally got butthurt I asked how the insurance thing would actually work as intended

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

I love when someone claims someone else is to emotionally invested in a topic (as an attempt to criticize them), and then turns around and writes 3 emotional paragraphs on the topic and does the exact thing they claim the other does...oh how hypocrisy knows no bounds....

I’ve actually made a point to be civil and give the polite version of what people I know actually have said about this.

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The mat side weigh-in seems like an okay idea, given most everyone has focused the discussion on the logistics (the how) rather than the solution (the what).  

Here is the beginning of a write-up.

  • For the wrestler who must make weight to compete, the mat side weigh-in is a policy that increases the safety of wrestlers, better matches wrestlers against competitors of their size, and influences match outcomes based on wrestler talent.  Unlike the current policy with infrequent weigh-ins, which contributes to sluggish action in dehydrated wrestlers, allows mismatches between competitors of 10%+ size difference, and enables dangerous weight-cutting practices that still contribute to wrestler deaths; the mat side weigh-in ensures that the competitors are within their weight class for every match, which better protects athletes and reduces the dangerous process of weight cutting by dehydration.

The new policy will influence these business outcomes

  • fewer pre-match hospitalizations and deaths due to weight cutting by dehydration (ethics, costs)
  • fewer in-match injuries (ethics, costs)
  • increased medal counts at the Senior World Level (brand)
  • increased athlete participation at the high school level (revenue, customer satisfaction, opportunity)
  • increased customer satisfaction with event entertainment (brand, revenue, customer satisfaction, opportunity)

The process requirements for mat-side requirements include (below is meant as an example for the discussion, not as a final declaration)

  • A wrestler that misses weight will forfeit their immediate and their remaining matches for the event
  • The wrestler must immediately make weight on a certified scale at match time when checking into the scorer table before each match
  • The wrestler will not be given extra time or a second chance to make the weight during the mat side weigh in
  • The wrestler must make weight while wearing their actual match uniform (to minimize the weight procedure time)

 

Notes:

  • The above policy will positively influence events where the competitor has multiple matches, such as the NCAA Championship and Senior wrestling tournaments.  Making weight various times over one to many days influences positive and practical weight management strategies.  A dehydrated wrestler will underperform when adhering to the mat side weigh-in policy, and this performance will influence long-term healthy weight management for duals and tournaments.
  • If the logistics and costs were manageable, the wrestler's safety would further be improved through the adoption of the One Championship weigh-in policy 
    • During event week, weights are checked daily
    • Urine-specific gravity will also be checked the day after arrival and 3 hours before the event.
    • Athletes must be within their weight class and pass specific gravity hydration tests all week and up to 3 hours before the event.
    • If athletes fall outside the weight or fail a test, they are disqualified from the event. Doctors may request additional testing at their discretion.
    • Athletes must wait until they are outside the eight-week “competition zone” to request a change to a lower weight class, and they can be requested to weigh in at any point at <Governing Body> discretion.
    • A percentage of weight a wrestler must be within during the eight-week competition period is 8 percent over in the first two weeks and slowly tapered down to “within desired weight class” on the week of the match

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