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Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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3 minutes ago, jross said:

The mat side weigh-in seems like an okay idea, given most everyone has focused the discussion on the logistics (the how) rather than the solution (the what).  

Here is the beginning of a write-up.

  • For the wrestler who must make weight to compete, the mat side weigh-in is a policy that increases the safety of wrestlers, better matches wrestlers against competitors of their size, and influences match outcomes based on wrestler talent.  Unlike the current policy with infrequent weigh-ins, which contributes to sluggish action in dehydrated wrestlers, allows mismatches between competitors of 10%+ size difference, and enables dangerous weight-cutting practices that still contribute to wrestler deaths; the mat side weigh-in ensures that the competitors are within their weight class for every match, which better protects athletes and reduces the dangerous process of weight cutting by dehydration.

The new policy will influence these business outcomes

  • fewer pre-match hospitalizations and deaths due to weight cutting by dehydration (ethics, costs)
  • fewer in-match injuries (ethics, costs)
  • increased medal counts at the Senior World Level (brand)
  • increased athlete participation at the high school level (revenue, customer satisfaction, opportunity)
  • increased customer satisfaction with event entertainment (brand, revenue, customer satisfaction, opportunity)

The process requirements for mat-side requirements include (below is meant as an example for the discussion, not as a final declaration)

  • A wrestler that misses weight will forfeit their immediate and their remaining matches for the event
  • The wrestler must immediately make weight on a certified scale at match time when checking into the scorer table before each match
  • The wrestler will not be given extra time or a second chance to make the weight during the mat side weigh in
  • The wrestler must make weight while wearing their actual match uniform (to minimize the weight procedure time)

 

Notes:

  • The above policy will positively influence events where the competitor has multiple matches, such as the NCAA Championship and Senior wrestling tournaments.  Making weight various times over one to many days influences positive and practical weight management strategies.  A dehydrated wrestler will underperform when adhering to the mat side weigh-in policy, and this performance will influence long-term healthy weight management for duals and tournaments.
  • If the logistics and costs were manageable, the wrestler's safety would further be improved through the adoption of the One Championship weigh-in policy 
    • During event week, weights are checked daily
    • Urine-specific gravity will also be checked the day after arrival and 3 hours before the event.
    • Athletes must be within their weight class and pass specific gravity hydration tests all week and up to 3 hours before the event.
    • If athletes fall outside the weight or fail a test, they are disqualified from the event. Doctors may request additional testing at their discretion.
    • Athletes must wait until they are outside the eight-week “competition zone” to request a change to a lower weight class, and they can be requested to weigh in at any point at <Governing Body> discretion.
    • A percentage of weight a wrestler must be within during the eight-week competition period is 8 percent over in the first two weeks and slowly tapered down to “within desired weight class” on the week of the match

I’ve said from the beginning the biggest issues are politics and logistics 

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57 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I’ve actually made a point to be civil and give the polite version of what people I know actually have said about this.

That was my interpretation of what you wrote too.

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1 hour ago, jross said:

 

  •  
    • Athletes must be within their weight class and pass specific gravity hydration tests all week and up to 3 hours before the event

Weigh ins and Hydration testing all week?? Ain’t nobody got time for that.  Although honestly, if you can manage to get legitimate weigh ins all week (not an easy ask), you probably don’t even need matside weigh ins.

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You might be right.  I stumbled on that in a one championship article.  Obviously it would not be a practical solution because of the cost.  I am trying to find if there have been measured improvement since OC implemented it.  OC created the new walking weight policy as a result of deaths due to bad weight cutting.

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16 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Weigh ins and Hydration testing all week?? Ain’t nobody got time for that.  Although honestly, if you can manage to get legitimate weigh ins all week (not an easy ask), you probably don’t even need matside weigh ins.

We could radically reduce the number of events, like one event per month. 

Dec = 1 week of non-conference duals (a dual a night with a quad on Sunday)

Jan = 1 week of conference duals (a dual a night with rivalry dual on Sunday)

Feb = conference tournament

March = NCAA tournament. 

Logic: you can't stay dehydrated for a week straight and the admin would only have to monitor hydration for that week. 

 

Edited by jackwebster

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2 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Absolutely not. Just trying to think of different options. I just edited my post for some even crazier stuff.

Fair enough. I have trouble getting hs coaches to not try to schedule until after Wednesday so I think it wouldn’t fly at that level.

College is kinda going that way though

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I like the idea of competition and weigh-in reduction. Penn State seems headed in that direction.  Many college wrestler makes weight 25-30 times/ year.   Each time within 1 hour of the start of competition.  No need for matside weighins with those stats.

The college season should be at least a month shorter.  However, that wouldn't reduce workouts or even workout related injuries and fatalities. 

 

Edited by Plasmodium

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2 hours ago, jp157 said:

Are there wrestling stories mixed in with that? Because mma still uses night before weigh ins

Not in that video.  How much weight was Sebastian Rivera cutting to make 125 and 133?  I think he was on record with flo as walking around at near 160 and needing to move up weight classes.  That’s more than 20%.  It seemed the cut impacted him during the early rounds of the NCAAs.

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1 hour ago, jross said:

Multiple weigh ins is what helps.  Reducing weigh in frequency will increase the risk of unhealthy weight cuts.

True, if you don't couple it with the suggested week-long hydration monitoring. Reduce the number of weigh-ins in order to have the resources for more thorough oversight of each wrestler's health.

***Edit: Checking each wrestler's hydration everyday 7 days prior to each event of a 12 event schedule would be impossible. If you only had 1 week of competition each month, then the this sorta monitoring might be possible.

***Edit 2: I like this idea: the season would be focused on a few big duals (ie fan friendly), give coaches longer stretches of training time (i.e. fewer peaks/valleys, wasted weight-cut days), force top programs to wrestle other top programs . . . not a lot of incentive to wrestle Directional State if you're only gonna have <10 total matches before the conference tournament; better have some matches against ranked opponents.

Idk I'm spitballing (btw I hate this cliche).

Edited by jackwebster

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1 hour ago, jross said:

Not in that video.  How much weight was Sebastian Rivera cutting to make 125 and 133?  I think he was on record with flo as walking around at near 160 and needing to move up weight classes.  That’s more than 20%.  It seemed the cut impacted him during the early rounds of the NCAAs.

When trying to convince people you need to use relevant examples. The night before weigh ins would make it a different sport even in wrestling 

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The MMA video expressed walking weight versus competition weight and the insanity of weight differences.  The Sebastian Rivera notation is relevant because he was a recent wrestler making an insane weight cut.  He still performed better than most wrestlers. However, the cut seemed to impact him at NCAAs.  According to this article, he also influenced his teammates to make insane weight cuts.  What is considered normal inside wrestling about weight cuts for already extremely fit athletes is still a problem.  

https://www.app.com/story/sports/college/rutgers/2021/10/28/sebastian-rivera-sammy-alvarez-weight-decisions-make-rutgers-wrestling-a-better-team/6117909001/

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I am not talking about cutting weight over time through the transformation of the body from 25% body fat to 5% body fat.  Rather I am talking about reducing 10-20% body weight in wrestlers already at 5% body fat.  

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35 minutes ago, jross said:

I am not talking about cutting weight over time through the transformation of the body from 25% body fat to 5% body fat.  Rather I am talking about reducing 10-20% body weight in wrestlers already at 5% body fat.  

There is voluminous medical literature that conclusively demonstrates that that rapid cycling/dehydration weight cuts damage the body in a variety of ways.

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3 hours ago, jross said:

I am not talking about cutting weight over time through the transformation of the body from 25% body fat to 5% body fat.  Rather I am talking about reducing 10-20% body weight in wrestlers already at 5% body fat.  

I know some will not give credit since I’m giving a good faith version of the bad faith arguments people will use. But that is why I tried to establish that weight management and weight cutting are completely different things

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8 hours ago, jross said:

I am not talking about cutting weight over time through the transformation of the body from 25% body fat to 5% body fat.  Rather I am talking about reducing 10-20% body weight in wrestlers already at 5% body fat.  

A 160 pound Seabass  clocks in at 5% body fat?  

The problem is not the weigh ins.  It is coaching and lineups.  Wrestlers aren't even allowed to certify below 5% body fat, so how could he possibly get certified?  Well - I suppose if they were already below during the actual  certification process, they might get certified.

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*5% is not the point.  If the body fat is already less than 10%, it is foolish to lose another 10 lbs.  

*I figured it to be common as I was 5.1% at 20.

Changing the weigh in policy will scope  what the coaching can influence for line ups.

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