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Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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11 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Be early to weigh in

Tournaments do weigh in’s either the day before or day of. In both cases, be early. Waiting in a long line to weigh in is exhausting so best to be there early. On same day weigh in’s, there is often a rule that you must weigh in within a certain amount of time before your division starts. This does not mean your first match, it means the first match of your division. Know when that is and make sure you aren’t late, you don’t want all your hard work to go to waste by disqualification. Competitions are strict about weight. If you don’t make weight, even with the weight allowance (often 1-5lbs over) then that is on you, not the workers of the competition. They will often let you, try again BEFORE the cut off, so start sweating if you’re 1-2 pounds over. Or they may give you the option to be moved to a higher weight bracket.

Not my experience. Before your match you step on a scale and if you miss weight you are done for the tournament. There may be reasons for not having matside weigh ins , but the logistics of weighing competitors in is not one

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20 hours ago, Idaho said:

You conveniently left out parts of my response "Are there individuals still not cutting correctly? Sure. But it's not extreme as you are making it out to be. That's why they descent plans and regulations on this"  is this the norm for all of D1 college wrestling? No. Did it used to be? Yes  Are there still some individuals doing this? Yes.  Does one video or even a few make this the norm? 

On a separate but related note - Where is the Cael in this situation with RBY? 

What I’m saying to you is that what RBY talks about in the video IS the norm. Especially at the smaller weights. This isn’t unusual. It’s a problem that this is normal. RBY is not a big 133, he looks pretty average sized at that weight. It has gotten better, but it’s still not nearly good enough.  

But I’m sure you’re about to deny it’s the norm and deflect. 100% chance of that.

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23 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

What I’m saying to you is that what RBY talks about in the video IS the norm. Especially at the smaller weights. This isn’t unusual. It’s a problem that this is normal. RBY is not a big 133, he looks pretty average sized at that weight. It has gotten better, but it’s still not nearly good enough.  

But I’m sure you’re about to deny it’s the norm and deflect. 100% chance of that.

I am familiar with several programs that focus on nutrition, do regular weight checks and follow the practices set forth to keep this from happening. That's what good coaches do.  I had a conversation this season with a 125 AA that  told me that the new program they started didn't allow for cutting a ton of weight at the end - his comment -  "the coaches are a lot smarter than us." I will gladly retract my statement if you can share with me more than half of the wrestlers (and coaches) that are cheating the system, the descent plans, and cutting massive weight prior to the weight ins. That would show that the norm is to do this and I will gladly retract my statement and agree with all the posters who have said this. 

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On 4/15/2022 at 5:24 PM, ShakaAloha said:

Cinnybuns is back!  

He couldn't stay away for even a month lol!

I was skeptical of this... but it is typical of him to start a thread titled like this one.... make some claims....then disappear from it while everyone argues. Pretty spot on for his posts. 

image.png.f69310cf33fbec2a73ba3c4d6e9541cb.png

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When I was a junior I weighed 95 pounds and wrestled JV 103 pounders and won around half my matches. As a senior I weighed 112 and cut to 103 weekly. I was sucked out and 3 PBJ Sammie later I would slam kids around the mat on varsity the way JV kids did to me. I think cutting weight has some real advantages if your skill level is not top 5 percent. 

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what about guys who lose weight naturally

in college, i dont think  there wont be as much of this (but who knows)

but in high school, i didn't want to cut and we had a good guy at the weight below

i was on full feed and having malts after every practice...

i started the season at 190 and wrestled 189 i was 178 at the weigh in the final day of state.

i could have easily been a 171 but didn't want to..and didn't want to take that guys spot.

did i do better because i was fully hydrated and eating all i wanted. i believe so.

but,there was also 18 pounds from my weight to the next.

 

so guys wont neccesarily be cutting weight... but will be accused of such...

how will you police it? 

who says what is your healthy weight?

guys are already scheming the system as it is.

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On 4/15/2022 at 11:33 PM, GreatWhiteNorth said:

We seem to all agree on a few things:

  • Weight cutting will exist as long as there are weight categories and cutting provides an advantage. Which it does and always has.
  • Human nature will assure that will not change.
  • What needs to change is the AMOUNT of advantage weight cutting provides.
  • As the advantage is minimized, the number of wrestlers/coaches who choose that option will also be minimized. It'll still be around, but that's OK.

Mat-side weigh ins and locked in rosters, IMO, are both great steps forward.

 

I just don't see it. I've heard that trope a ton on this thread. There is no proof, other than anecdotal, that it has any benefit whatsoever. Just as many examples of wrestlers moving up and being just as, if not more successful. Lets not forget the benefits of life not having to watch everything you eat, as a kid. Better for school work. Having energy during growth spurts. Better for regulating mood changes that come with changes in body chemistry. Better for body image, not having to constantly compare yourself to others who might be blessed with genetic traits that you don't have. 

We allow it to happen, because we've just always done it. Changing the weigh in rules/procedure can help but its up to parents to see the signs. Which means knowing them and looking for them. That's what gets people upset. Encroaching on the parenting style of others is the line we refuse to cross. Calling someone out opens the door to it happening to you, and we can't have that. 

Friends don't let friends cut weight!

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On 4/16/2022 at 11:55 AM, jackwebster said:

An athlete can't perform optimally while malnourished and dehydrated. However, the degree and type of fall-off will vary from wrestler to wrestler. In this way, weight cutting becomes just another component of an athlete's skill set. Some have better gas tanks, some have better propioception, some are more explosive, meaner, tougher, etc. This is gonna sound absurd, but limiting weight cutting is akin to limiting the number of techniques a wrestler can use. In fact, we do this anyway, e.g. we recently took away the cut back, side-headlock stall, and the Heil-leech. Some of these weight regulations make sense even though they put a subset of wrestlers who are really good at cutting weight at a disadvantage, just like Heil was put at a disadvantage when they took away his move.

The goal, I guess, is to find the sweet spot. Right now, I think we have gone overboard on the regulation. One hour doesn't give the weight cutting freaks a chance to fully exploit their advantage. I would prefer to keep the initial cert process, adopt a modified decent plan, and make weigh-ins 3-4 hours before match time. 

Dangerous? Maybe, but there seem to be a lot of guys taped together come March, guys wrestling with no ACL's from what I've heard. Isn't the ability to wrestle while injured an advantage available to some but not others? The ability to wrestle while dehydrated is the same sort of skill.

 

Fair points. Except that name of the game is 'Wrestling'. Not 'Cutting Weight'. Maybe they should be forced to learn other techniques. It would better prepare them for things outside of sport. The ability to adapt and learn on the fly, never hurt anyone. The ability to perform while injured is a skill that is not one that anybody wants to be proficient at. But can be a learning experience. Not being able to do certain things, for a short period of time, forces you to improve in other areas that you wouldn't have considered. This is that. Taking away this crutch would force those to adapt. Learn more, effective techniques. Work to build their gas tank. Become more evasive to larger opponents. There are countless benefits to the elimination of weight cutting. The only benefit that I've heard is hardly been proven as a benefit at all. 

Not cutting weight was a great experience. It changed my outlook on the sport. I was healthier and happier. It wasn't until I didn't HAVE to do it, that I questioned why I ever did it in the first place. 

Yes it helps to fill a lineup. But there are always going to be challenges there. That's why the curve is shaped that way. There's no easy answer for that. Except pray for little guys that stay little and big guys that enjoy wrestling more than football. Other than that, work with what you have. 

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I am all for the most healthy weight management possible.  However, I just don't see matside weigh-ins being "the fix".  Hell, the MHSAA Individual State Tournament just did satellite weigh-ins the day before.  With 4 divisions and the women's division for the first time, on top of that, it just made the tournament itself go infinitely smoother.  Honestly, it may have been the best ran one I can remember.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't prefer day of weigh-ins, but getting enough and the right guys to work the scales and check in the wrestlers is often harder than you think.  Especially, bright and early in the morning.  Matside weigh-ins for 896 boys and 224 just wasn't going to happen.  Maybe it could work in a more condensed NCAA setting, but I don't see it ever being possible in MI at the High School level...

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On 4/16/2022 at 1:37 PM, Idaho said:

You conveniently left out parts of my response "Are there individuals still not cutting correctly? Sure. But it's not extreme as you are making it out to be. That's why they descent plans and regulations on this"  is this the norm for all of D1 college wrestling? No. Did it used to be? Yes  Are there still some individuals doing this? Yes.  Does one video or even a few make this the norm? 

On a separate but related note - Where is the Cael in this situation with RBY? 

A decent plan is a nice tool but is rarely used effectively. Keep in mind, these are kids. Junior high, high school, and college. Sure they have more info about meal planning and diet than ever before. But they also have WAY more information. Some not so great. But I digress. They're kids. Some, not even most, just some of them wait till the last minute to do just about anything. Sure, pre-season workouts can help to work off some of the offseason weight. Those workouts tend to be shorter and less intense than regular season workouts. In the hopes of not scarring off new athletes and that coaches aren't allowed to have as much time with athletes in the off season. Clubs have helped in that regard but not everyone has the time or money for club wrestling in preparation for the school season. But again I digress. It sounds like we're trying to have it both ways. 'Its not an issue because its always happened and will always happen'  and 'not that many athletes do it, so what is the harm'. Firstly, its not something that many athletes boast about or have the confidence to talk about, outside of two time national champions. So, we have no idea how many kids are doing it, either way. Hence the feelings of shame and guilt. Secondly, they feel pressure to maintain a weight for the team during periods in their lives when they are growing. If they happen to be 'successful' at cutting weight during those times, it gives them an unhealth sense of confidence in doing it again, and again, and again. Things can spiral, and get pretty extreme all while feeling totally normal considering the success that they've had up to that point. 

Some of us on this board have cut weight and some of us have cut A LOT of weight. Not all of us agree that it was unhealthy. That blows my mind, but considering the last few years, we can convince ourselves of just about anything to keep from upsetting the status quo. 

I'm sorry that you can't take a step back and realize, for the sake of the next generation, that we made mistakes. I did. A huge one and for more years than I like to admit. I'm going to tell my kids and my wrestlers of what I did. As a cautionary tale. Not one to be venerated by any means. To help them from making the same mistakes. I hope they're better for it. 

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23 hours ago, JMONEY149 said:

When I was a junior I weighed 95 pounds and wrestled JV 103 pounders and won around half my matches. As a senior I weighed 112 and cut to 103 weekly. I was sucked out and 3 PBJ Sammie later I would slam kids around the mat on varsity the way JV kids did to me. I think cutting weight has some real advantages if your skill level is not top 5 percent. 

Can you not see the asymmetry that you've described? Or the unhealthy nature of your situation?

It probably wasn't a great idea for an inexperienced wrestler to give up that much weight if other options were available. The state I wrestled in offered 98lbs on JV. If yours did, it was probably a better idea to have you wrestle there instead of being a punching bag on varsity. Your coach doesn't seem like he had your well being as a priority. That being said, opposing coaches feeding their 95lbs wrestlers to a bigger, more experienced wrestler is a metaphor for what I'm talking about. Because you did it and made it through, doesn't make it right or something to impose on the next generation. 

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5 hours ago, GockeS said:

what about guys who lose weight naturally

in college, i dont think  there wont be as much of this (but who knows)

but in high school, i didn't want to cut and we had a good guy at the weight below

i was on full feed and having malts after every practice...

i started the season at 190 and wrestled 189 i was 178 at the weigh in the final day of state.

i could have easily been a 171 but didn't want to..and didn't want to take that guys spot.

did i do better because i was fully hydrated and eating all i wanted. i believe so.

but,there was also 18 pounds from my weight to the next.

 

so guys wont neccesarily be cutting weight... but will be accused of such...

how will you police it? 

who says what is your healthy weight?

guys are already scheming the system as it is.

I don't think that's as much of an issue at this point. I wish it was. That's the goal. Tons of happy kids, underweight(for their weight class), eating and being merry. I can't see the need to police this as an issue either. 

We've all seen the kids that cut weight and how it manifests. Arrive early to the venue. Running, while wearing more layers than necessary. Drilling... a lot! With multiple partners because no one else needs to warm up THAT much if you're not cutting. Dry lips. Sucked in cheeks. General miserable/desperate look to them. 

On the contrary, the kids that are on or under weight. We know what they look like too. Jogging, with a general happy or nervous look(because they have the energy to feel nervous, because they know they're going to make weight, so they can start thinking about their opponents or their matches or what to say when their parents walk into the gym and yell at them that they will be sitting over there). More kids should have your experience or something akin to it rather than cutting weight and being miserable, is my point. 

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2 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Fair points. Except that name of the game is 'Wrestling'. Not 'Cutting Weight'. Maybe they should be forced to learn other techniques. It would better prepare them for things outside of sport. The ability to adapt and learn on the fly, never hurt anyone. The ability to perform while injured is a skill that is not one that anybody wants to be proficient at. But can be a learning experience. Not being able to do certain things, for a short period of time, forces you to improve in other areas that you wouldn't have considered. This is that. Taking away this crutch would force those to adapt. Learn more, effective techniques. Work to build their gas tank. Become more evasive to larger opponents. There are countless benefits to the elimination of weight cutting. The only benefit that I've heard is hardly been proven as a benefit at all. 

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that building a gas tank and learning more techniques teach life lessons while cutting weight does not. I'm also confused by the claim that the former are more essential parts of the sport.  Yes: Cutting weight usually sucks, is usually counter-productive, and can be dangerous in both the short and long term. But, there are lots of things wrestlers do that are just as irrational as cutting weight, eg why would anyone put in "road work"?  Point is that "wrestling" describes what wrestlers do; it doesn't prescribe it. 

Edited by jackwebster

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8 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

I don't think that's as much of an issue at this point. I wish it was. That's the goal. Tons of happy kids, underweight(for their weight class), eating and being merry. I can't see the need to police this as an issue either. 

We've all seen the kids that cut weight and how it manifests. Arrive early to the venue. Running, while wearing more layers than necessary. Drilling... a lot! With multiple partners because no one else needs to warm up THAT much if you're not cutting. Dry lips. Sucked in cheeks. General miserable/desperate look to them. 

On the contrary, the kids that are on or under weight. We know what they look like too. Jogging, with a general happy or nervous look(because they have the energy to feel nervous, because they know they're going to make weight, so they can start thinking about their opponents or their matches or what to say when their parents walk into the gym and yell at them that they will be sitting over there). More kids should have your experience or something akin to it rather than cutting weight and being miserable, is my point. 

You do understand that trends are a thing… especially as more and more coaches who wrestled only with short weigh in times take over more and more. The coaches still doing the stupid **** are getting left behind more and more… 

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9 hours ago, MSU158 said:

I am all for the most healthy weight management possible.  However, I just don't see matside weigh-ins being "the fix".  Hell, the MHSAA Individual State Tournament just did satellite weigh-ins the day before.  With 4 divisions and the women's division for the first time, on top of that, it just made the tournament itself go infinitely smoother.  Honestly, it may have been the best ran one I can remember.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't prefer day of weigh-ins, but getting enough and the right guys to work the scales and check in the wrestlers is often harder than you think.  Especially, bright and early in the morning.  Matside weigh-ins for 896 boys and 224 just wasn't going to happen.  Maybe it could work in a more condensed NCAA setting, but I don't see it ever being possible in MI at the High School level...

He doesn’t want to hear about logistics and realities

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10 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

I just don't see it. I've heard that trope a ton on this thread. There is no proof, other than anecdotal, that it has any benefit whatsoever. Just as many examples of wrestlers moving up and being just as, if not more successful. Lets not forget the benefits of life not having to watch everything you eat, as a kid. Better for school work. Having energy during growth spurts. Better for regulating mood changes that come with changes in body chemistry. Better for body image, not having to constantly compare yourself to others who might be blessed with genetic traits that you don't have. 

We allow it to happen, because we've just always done it. Changing the weigh in rules/procedure can help but its up to parents to see the signs. Which means knowing them and looking for them. That's what gets people upset. Encroaching on the parenting style of others is the line we refuse to cross. Calling someone out opens the door to it happening to you, and we can't have that. 

Friends don't let friends cut weight!

Perhaps you've misunderstood my post - mine was clearly an anti weight cutting perspective.

I've sent you a PM.

Edited by GreatWhiteNorth

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On 4/18/2022 at 2:26 PM, TwoPointTakeDown said:

I don't think that's as much of an issue at this point. I wish it was. That's the goal. Tons of happy kids, underweight(for their weight class), eating and being merry. I can't see the need to police this as an issue either. 

We've all seen the kids that cut weight and how it manifests. Arrive early to the venue. Running, while wearing more layers than necessary. Drilling... a lot! With multiple partners because no one else needs to warm up THAT much if you're not cutting. Dry lips. Sucked in cheeks. General miserable/desperate look to them. 

On the contrary, the kids that are on or under weight. We know what they look like too. Jogging, with a general happy or nervous look(because they have the energy to feel nervous, because they know they're going to make weight, so they can start thinking about their opponents or their matches or what to say when their parents walk into the gym and yell at them that they will be sitting over there). More kids should have your experience or something akin to it rather than cutting weight and being miserable, is my point. 

ok the kid naturally got down to the next weight over a few months... but the day before drank too much water... now he is running

or another kid cut hard to get down and now is acclimated... 

which is worse? 

whats wrong with warming up?

if i can compete at a high level while cutting is that really bad for me? 

not a huge cutting fan, but since i was stupid and bit on the cinny roll i mite as well chew it

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On 4/18/2022 at 12:36 PM, MSU158 said:

I am all for the most healthy weight management possible.  However, I just don't see matside weigh-ins being "the fix".  Hell, the MHSAA Individual State Tournament just did satellite weigh-ins the day before.  With 4 divisions and the women's division for the first time, on top of that, it just made the tournament itself go infinitely smoother.  Honestly, it may have been the best ran one I can remember.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't prefer day of weigh-ins, but getting enough and the right guys to work the scales and check in the wrestlers is often harder than you think.  Especially, bright and early in the morning.  Matside weigh-ins for 896 boys and 224 just wasn't going to happen.  Maybe it could work in a more condensed NCAA setting, but I don't see it ever being possible in MI at the High School level...

Wow - just one weigh-in for the MHSAA state tournament?  Three day tournament?

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Mat side weigh-ins might help, but it won't stop weight cutting. The goal is to be big for the weight. What is to stop someone from cutting to below the weight class and refueling and rehydrating several hours before competition. Let's say I want to wrestle 138. My walk around mat side weight is 150. I cut 15-16 pounds instead of 12 so I can refuel/rehydrate 2-3 hours before competition. I am still big for the weight, I just have to adjust my cut to make it a few hours early and 3-4 pounds under. It  would take some discipline to convince yourself to mentally see the 138 weight class as 134-135 though. Sorry, I'm a high school coach, so I used a high school weight and scenario as my example. 

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Convert to mat side weigh in and the problem is solved.

Much the same that if the food preparer wants their family to lose weight, they serve food on a smaller plate.  No education, motivation, or skill required when the environment makes it easy to behave in the desired way.

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