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TwoPointTakeDown

Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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15 hours ago, GockeS said:

i think it's pretty easy to obey the law... yet there are so many people breaking the law

In the immortal words of one the adults given the responsibility of calibrating my moral compass: "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." Needless to say, there were a lot of functional methheads and tax dodgers in my 'rents' orbit.

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On 4/19/2022 at 12:03 AM, jp157 said:

He doesn’t want to hear about logistics and realities

Do you mean me?

If you do. I can't see how you would come to that conclusion. I have admitted that newer rules meant to curb the practice of weight cutting have been effective. But that it(cutting weight) still resides in the culture of the sport. 

What logistics and/or realities do you speak of?

Because I've seen references to the rules(see above) and seen excuses being peddled as if there is nothing that can be done about it. Rules and procedures are great, but as I've mentioned they have flaws. Its getting better. But until we start coming out and saying it to our athletes and parents that it will not be tolerated, it will endure. There will always be those people who fill the void and find success in skirting the rules and norms. Its a shame that a coach would knowingly or unknowingly allow a child to do that to themselves for the sake of winning. That we all know that this happens and say nothing is unconscionable.  And I don't mean on a message board, but out loud to our own athletes and their coaches. Its tantamount to child abuse to let an athlete do that to themselves. 

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On 4/20/2022 at 10:51 AM, GockeS said:

ok the kid naturally got down to the next weight over a few months... but the day before drank too much water... now he is running

or another kid cut hard to get down and now is acclimated... 

which is worse? 

whats wrong with warming up?

if i can compete at a high level while cutting is that really bad for me? 

not a huge cutting fan, but since i was stupid and bit on the cinny roll i mite as well chew it

Lets keep in mind that running before weigh ins is the culmination of the weight cutting process, not the beginning. So running to lose a few ounces, while being quite hydrated, is NOT what we're talking about. 

What does acclimated mean? If the athlete dieted and descended slowly over weeks or months, again, is not what we're talking about. If it is a weight that is maintained while being hydrated, that's disco. 

Neither is worse or better. (see above)

Not the issue.

Yes. If you're cutting weight outside of the rules and the decent plan, it has been considered unhealthy. Hence the rules. It seems like your definition of weight cutting is just dieting and shedding body fat while maintaining hydration. Am I wrong? Because there is nothing wrong or unhealthy(to a point) with that. 

Not sure what this means, but cinny rolls are ok. More of a croissant fan, myself. 

 

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On 4/22/2022 at 2:19 PM, steen-hooph said:

Mat side weigh-ins might help, but it won't stop weight cutting. The goal is to be big for the weight. What is to stop someone from cutting to below the weight class and refueling and rehydrating several hours before competition. Let's say I want to wrestle 138. My walk around mat side weight is 150. I cut 15-16 pounds instead of 12 so I can refuel/rehydrate 2-3 hours before competition. I am still big for the weight, I just have to adjust my cut to make it a few hours early and 3-4 pounds under. It  would take some discipline to convince yourself to mentally see the 138 weight class as 134-135 though. Sorry, I'm a high school coach, so I used a high school weight and scenario as my example. 

Just seems like a lot of energy dedicated to weight management that could be used to get better at wrestling. 

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1 hour ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Lets keep in mind that running before weigh ins is the culmination of the weight cutting process, not the beginning. So running to lose a few ounces, while being quite hydrated, is NOT what we're talking about. 

What does acclimated mean? If the athlete dieted and descended slowly over weeks or months, again, is not what we're talking about. If it is a weight that is maintained while being hydrated, that's disco. 

Neither is worse or better. (see above)

Not the issue.

Yes. If you're cutting weight outside of the rules and the decent plan, it has been considered unhealthy. Hence the rules. It seems like your definition of weight cutting is just dieting and shedding body fat while maintaining hydration. Am I wrong? Because there is nothing wrong or unhealthy(to a point) with that. 

Not sure what this means, but cinny rolls are ok. More of a croissant fan, myself. 

 

you must never have wrestled or met a wrestler to not understand 'acclimated to weight' 

i thought cutting was the issue.. if i can cut and compete at a high level...it's not bad for me 

Edited by GockeS

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6 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Do you mean me?

If you do. I can't see how you would come to that conclusion. I have admitted that newer rules meant to curb the practice of weight cutting have been effective. But that it(cutting weight) still resides in the culture of the sport. 

What logistics and/or realities do you speak of?

Because I've seen references to the rules(see above) and seen excuses being peddled as if there is nothing that can be done about it. Rules and procedures are great, but as I've mentioned they have flaws. Its getting better. But until we start coming out and saying it to our athletes and parents that it will not be tolerated, it will endure. There will always be those people who fill the void and find success in skirting the rules and norms. Its a shame that a coach would knowingly or unknowingly allow a child to do that to themselves for the sake of winning. That we all know that this happens and say nothing is unconscionable.  And I don't mean on a message board, but out loud to our own athletes and their coaches. Its tantamount to child abuse to let an athlete do that to themselves. 

Sigh. Grand standing should only be used when it’ll actually be effective. 
 

The goal should be to make wrestling accessible. One of the number one things I’ve seen turn people away is tournament’s that last way too long Adding a minimum of 1-2 hours to a tournament to minimize a problem that has been increasingly going away the more athletes who competed under the new rules..

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There is no good solution to stop the weight cutting problem we have as a sport. We have moronic parents who cut their kids down when they are single digit in age. 7 year olds cutting weight. Its pathetic. Hydration tests are easy to cheat. The only answer is to worry about your own program and instill a no weight cutting philosophy because you can't legislate the idiocy of wrestlers away. 

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24 minutes ago, TheHeel said:

There is no good solution to stop the weight cutting problem we have as a sport. We have moronic parents who cut their kids down when they are single digit in age. 7 year olds cutting weight. Its pathetic. Hydration tests are easy to cheat. The only answer is to worry about your own program and instill a no weight cutting philosophy because you can't legislate the idiocy of wrestlers away. 

1-2 hour weigh in’s and having to weigh in the next day do more to minimize cutting than anything else 

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1 hour ago, jp157 said:

1-2 hour weigh in’s and having to weigh in the next day do more to minimize cutting than anything else 

I wrestled in college with the rules you mention. It didn't stop much weight cutting. 

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Sheesh! Where to begin? As previously mentioned, people are always going to cut. You can fiddle with the wt classes all you want, but most people will cut. With very few exceptions, virtually everyone has "fat'' that they can lose and it actually improves performance. That's the rub tho. Cutting weight is a science and most people don't do it correctly because it involves a lot of education, incredible discipline, and a plan. If kids are starving themselves or dehydrating or puking/taking diuretics/laxatives...then they aren't very educated or disciplined. We didn't have all these mandates back in the day. Sometimes we cut because it was better for the team. Sometimes we cut because it was better for us. It only makes sense that if you lose x number of pounds of permanent weight (fat), that you will be stronger, faster, more efficient. Cutting fat is the key and knowing what your limits are is too. Starting the process should begin a month to a month in a half before 1st weigh-in. Most people start cutting a week or so before...dumb. Once you lose the permanent wt. (fat), you shouldn't come in more than 5 lbs over between competitions. That's a key. As mentioned, you become acclimated to that wt. if you can stay within those boundaries. Plus, I was working out 3x/s a day. Once I got down to wt, I could eat almost anything I wanted...almost. When you come in more than 5 lbs. you aren't concerned with your timing, setups, action/reaction, strategies, etc., all you're thinking about is how much you need to lose in practice and what you can't eat that nite. I made it a habit to never leave practice until I was 1 - 2 lbs under wt the day before a weigh in. I had a nice piece of meat, baked potato, salad, water...I knew I could eat a good meal that would put me about 1-1/2 lbs. over and I'd drift it by weigh-ins easily.  However, back then, we weighed in 5 hrs before a match. We got a 1 pound allowance in Jan (126 was 127), 1 more in Feb (128), and then at NCAA's we could weigh in Wednesday evening (128) or Thurs morn, then they added a pound on Friday (129) and another pound on Sat (130). I used to run 45 min, M-Sat, starting Oct.1, for 3 weeks (to make wt. for Dec weigh in). After 3 weeks it was cut to 40 for one week, then 30 for one week, etc., until it was just a 10 min balls out run. And that's where it stayed for the rest fo the season. I've heard the same stories about guys who lost 5, 6, 10...whatever pounds the day of and all that, and I've heard all the ones about those who gained 10, 15, or whatever before the finals...As far as I'm concerned, i think some stories are hyperbole, but more than that, I think it's foolish. You're that many pounds slower, it affects stamina, and it plugs up your system...IMO. I never had to waste any energy cutting to make wt the day of a competition. I believed in saving my energy for the match. I used to take such joy in watching my opponents busting their fannies doing all the things wrestlers do to make wt 5 hrs before we wrestled. I knew I had an edge on how I cut and managed my weight. Furthermore, I hate running. But I looked at running like I looked at the cutting wt. Every step I take, I'm farther from the beginning and closer to the end. Every day I cut wt. I was farther from the beginning and closer to the end of the season. It's only temporary.  I cannot begin to tell you how many guys I wrestled with who complained about cutting wt and now they look like they fell on an air pump. I have way more to say, but I have to knock off a piece of Chef Pierre Carmel Apple Nut pie from GFS...the best!

 

 

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2 hours ago, TheHeel said:

I wrestled in college with the rules you mention. It didn't stop much weight cutting. 

You do understand that the average “cut” wrestlers are doing.. has dramatically dropped. My HS coach wrestled DI in the 90s and I did in the 2010s. The stories and numbers between the old and new rules are telling. And no, I’m not basing that on just his stories. That’s just an example.

Also the trend I’ve personally seen is the good coaches either have the kids manage a little bit of weight  or only let them cut if they’re being super disciplined like Milkovich talked about.

Is that 100% the case? No. Obviously. But more and more those coaches are leaving the others behind. 
 

Besides. TS is clearly bitter

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15 hours ago, jp157 said:

Sigh. Grand standing should only be used when it’ll actually be effective. 
 

The goal should be to make wrestling accessible. One of the number one things I’ve seen turn people away is tournament’s that last way too long Adding a minimum of 1-2 hours to a tournament to minimize a problem that has been increasingly going away the more athletes who competed under the new rules..

Accessible and a positive experience. How many number one things? Tournaments taking forever is an issue. Which is a difficult fix, because we want as many opportunities to compete as is maximally beneficial. That's a tough needle to thread. Capping season match totals could help. Make parents and coaches more selective of events. Capping tournament entries or making them more of invite only. Tiered, based on experience. Rather than a free-for-all. The fact is tournaments are often fundraisers, so the more athletes equals more money. So until programs and tournament directors can guarantee a profit to a certain level, then we'll have the tournament marathons that we grew up going to. Unless we can change the dynamic of those tournaments. Make them multi purpose events. Things for parents, options for little little kids(day care facility), or another sport/activity to participate in during some of the down time. Which would take an incredible amount of coordination and planning. Which would threaten profits and feasibility. But not out of the realm of possibility. 

15 hours ago, jp157 said:
16 hours ago, GockeS said:

you must never have wrestled or met a wrestler to not understand 'acclimated to weight' 

i thought cutting was the issue.. if i can cut and compete at a high level...it's not bad for me 

Please define 'acclimated to weight' because as I mentioned before, we might talking about two different things. In my experience, you don't acclimatize yourself to an unhealthy practice. Cutting weight, IMO is overly dehydrating yourself over the course of several days prior to a weigh in. Its unhealthy, period. You don't acclimatize to that. Slimming down by losing body fat is more akin to acclimatize. 

15 hours ago, TheHeel said:

There is no good solution to stop the weight cutting problem we have as a sport. We have moronic parents who cut their kids down when they are single digit in age. 7 year olds cutting weight. Its pathetic. Hydration tests are easy to cheat. The only answer is to worry about your own program and instill a no weight cutting philosophy because you can't legislate the idiocy of wrestlers away. 

The first five words in your response is a copout and the reason people believe it is because you keep repeating it. Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is terrible way to look at a potential solutions. What that statement says to me is, because you are not able or willing to put forth the effort for meaningful change, you don't want to be left behind when the world eventually moves on without you. Can you see how destructive that mentality is? Probably not, or you wouldn't have typed it. It is not a lesson you learned from wrestling or you did. How did you come to adopt it? Is a question I am very interested to have answered. Difficult things can be overcome given enough time and energy. 

One of the reasons many on this thread and ones like it, feel everything is falling apart is from those five words and the attitude that comes with it. You've given up on making progress because you're scared to fail or be left behind. Trying really hard and not reaching your goal can break your spirit if you let it. That is the lesson. Give up if you want. But do it alone. Don't drag us and future wrestlers with you!

12 hours ago, TheHeel said:

I wrestled in college with the rules you mention. It didn't stop much weight cutting. 

Ditto. 

It just made the kids, that REALLY needed to cut, better at hiding it. The guards are only in the prison for their shift. The prisoners have all day to figure out the weaknesses in a system. The arms race is tilted to one side. 

 

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40 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Accessible and a positive experience. How many number one things? Tournaments taking forever is an issue. Which is a difficult fix, because we want as many opportunities to compete as is maximally beneficial. That's a tough needle to thread. Capping season match totals could help. Make parents and coaches more selective of events. Capping tournament entries or making them more of invite only. Tiered, based on experience. Rather than a free-for-all. The fact is tournaments are often fundraisers, so the more athletes equals more money. So until programs and tournament directors can guarantee a profit to a certain level, then we'll have the tournament marathons that we grew up going to. Unless we can change the dynamic of those tournaments. Make them multi purpose events. Things for parents, options for little little kids(day care facility), or another sport/activity to participate in during some of the down time. Which would take an incredible amount of coordination and planning. Which would threaten profits and feasibility. But not out of the realm of possibility. 

 

I don’t get the point of your grandstanding honestly bud. What do you hope to accomplish? At the end of the day. You’ll need coaches who actually set the culture when it comes to cutting. The trend I have seen is most definitely towards the good end not bad.

If you’re going to be an immature person and not understand the word “trend” and not understand that meaningful change takes time. There is no productive conversation to be had.

For example, if you enforce not cutting in your program. The guys who you coached who become coaches will enforce it too..

Again. The most egregious stuff I see is in youth anyway. 
 

 

Edited by jp157
Grammar

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13 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I don’t get the point of your grandstanding honestly bud. What do you hope to accomplish? At the end of the day. You’ll need coaches who actually set the culture when it comes to cutting. The trend I have seen is most definitely towards the good end not bad.

If you’re going to be an immature person and not understand the word “trend” and not understand that meaningful change takes time. There is no productive conversation to be had.

For example, if you enforce not cutting in your program. The guys who you coached who become coaches will enforce it too..

Again. The most egregious stuff I see is in youth anyway. 
 

 

What grandstanding? Please explain? 

Coaches set the culture. But it takes parents to ask the questions and be involved and hold the coaches accountable when issues arise. It might cause headaches initially. But you said it yourself, good coaches will avoid these by being diligent and ethical. 

I'm sorry you feel I am being immature. But dismissing a point by labeling it 'Grandstanding' needs some explanation. If you feel uncomfortable with what I am saying, that's on you. I don't see the trend. I feel kids are more and more competitive for starting spots and national rankings, at younger and younger ages, that they will do whatever is necessary to reach their goals, because that is what is expected of them, by us. That can breed unhealthy behavior. Cutting weight is just one of a myriad of things that can arise from being worried only with results and not of the journey. The ramifications of which can be costly down the road. I don't feel its grandstanding to point out that we as a culture have been largely ignoring these things and what they do to kids, at every level. I'm sorry if you don't agree but I'd like to know why. What do you see about the sport and the current culture that tells you we're going in the right direction as far as physical and mental health? Considering we have not been too concerned with either up until very recently.  

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15 minutes ago, GockeS said:

but i believe correct

whether you deem it classy or not 

From what you've said, I have to agree that you believe. But you still need warrant for your belief. I'm curious what it is. Lay it out for us or would you rather just lob comments from the safety of the peanut gallery? 

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6 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

What grandstanding? Please explain? 

Coaches set the culture. But it takes parents to ask the questions and be involved and hold the coaches accountable when issues arise. It might cause headaches initially. But you said it yourself, good coaches will avoid these by being diligent and ethical. 

I'm sorry you feel I am being immature. But dismissing a point by labeling it 'Grandstanding' needs some explanation. If you feel uncomfortable with what I am saying, that's on you. I don't see the trend. I feel kids are more and more competitive for starting spots and national rankings, at younger and younger ages, that they will do whatever is necessary to reach their goals, because that is what is expected of them, by us. That can breed unhealthy behavior. Cutting weight is just one of a myriad of things that can arise from being worried only with results and not of the journey. The ramifications of which can be costly down the road. I don't feel its grandstanding to point out that we as a culture have been largely ignoring these things and what they do to kids, at every level. I'm sorry if you don't agree but I'd like to know why. What do you see about the sport and the current culture that tells you we're going in the right direction as far as physical and mental health? Considering we have not been too concerned with either up until very recently.  

Coaches aren’t the problem or the source of most of the worst of the stuff you’re talking about.. Parents are. Much much more than coaches, 
 

And yes, the way you’re going about it is very much grandstanding. 

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19 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

From what you've said, I have to agree that you believe. But you still need warrant for your belief. I'm curious what it is. Lay it out for us or would you rather just lob comments from the safety of the peanut gallery? 

lol... says the person lobbing from the cinnabon gallery

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The whole "weight cutting" topic is an interesting one to me.  Coming from the era that did a lot of weight cutting, and did it the wrong way (starvation and plastic suites in sauna's), I think the environment now in terms of weight cutting is 180 degrees different than it was previously.  The problem with today is that the "bad weight cutting" is very rare, but those one off's still puts the negative perception out there about our great sport.  I think in today's day and age with the vast improvement in understanding physiology, endurance, nutrition, body composition, peak physical performance, etc. there has been a drastic shift in how people "cut" to the weight they wrestle at.  It is such a science now and the vast majority do it "the right way".  As a high school coach for many years, we have NEVER encouraged kids to "cut weight".  And if we learned of a kid doing that we made them stop.  We have always encouraged wrestling at the lowest weight for which you will be at your peak performance.  Eat right.  Sleep good.  And work hard.  The right weight will work itself out if you do that.  Our last couple of state champions didn't "cut weight" at all.  But they did all the other things to perfection.

If there are coaches out there who encourage "weight cutting" then they are just bad coaches...which there probably always will be.  The point is, no policy, or change in weigh-in procedure will completely eliminate the stupid "weight cutting" that happens.  Get rid of the bad coaches when they pop up and try to inform all the stupid dim witted parents out there that make their toddlers/little kids cut weight, and move on.

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16 hours ago, jp157 said:

Coaches aren’t the problem or the source of most of the worst of the stuff you’re talking about.. Parents are. Much much more than coaches, 
 

And yes, the way you’re going about it is very much grandstanding. 

Parents are an issue and should be dealt with. How is it that the idea of addressing the issue holistically is, itself, an issue? Why are we arguing about who's fault it is? Its everyone's fault. You for pushing back. Me for doing it so long ago. Regardless, everyone should be aware of it, educated about it, and disciplined if caught. Being caught could mean a variety of things. If official rules are broken then official punishment can be handed down. If caught or suspected by coaches, it needs to be addressed. The path of least resistance, on this matter, is literally putting kids in danger. Coaches overlook it because the kids fill spots in their line up, or they don't want to deal with parents. I'm sorry but that is BS and possibly actionable. One of a few sports that requires a weigh in, ADs should be keenly aware of the issue and work to implement measures to CYA, if for no other reason then it keeps them out of the spot light in bad way. 

I try not to be mean on purpose. Some feel as if I talk down in my posts and I honestly don't mean to. And I won't apologize for my use of  vocabulary. But to be honest, your opinion on how I am 'going about it' is worthless unless you give me more. Worthless to me, in the hopes of improving my communication skills to, perhaps, sway someone like you. And worthless for you to type because it makes you sound like a whiner. Are those your points tho, are you getting your dopamine hit from this response? If so, have at it. But you're not offering anything to help. So why offer your opinion at all? You come off like a low rent bully and I think you can do better. Chances are, probably not. Considering the multiple chances you've had to expound on your thoughts, but to no avail. 

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42 minutes ago, dman115 said:

The whole "weight cutting" topic is an interesting one to me.  Coming from the era that did a lot of weight cutting, and did it the wrong way (starvation and plastic suites in sauna's), I think the environment now in terms of weight cutting is 180 degrees different than it was previously.  The problem with today is that the "bad weight cutting" is very rare, but those one off's still puts the negative perception out there about our great sport.  I think in today's day and age with the vast improvement in understanding physiology, endurance, nutrition, body composition, peak physical performance, etc. there has been a drastic shift in how people "cut" to the weight they wrestle at.  It is such a science now and the vast majority do it "the right way".  As a high school coach for many years, we have NEVER encouraged kids to "cut weight".  And if we learned of a kid doing that we made them stop.  We have always encouraged wrestling at the lowest weight for which you will be at your peak performance.  Eat right.  Sleep good.  And work hard.  The right weight will work itself out if you do that.  Our last couple of state champions didn't "cut weight" at all.  But they did all the other things to perfection.

If there are coaches out there who encourage "weight cutting" then they are just bad coaches...which there probably always will be.  The point is, no policy, or change in weigh-in procedure will completely eliminate the stupid "weight cutting" that happens.  Get rid of the bad coaches when they pop up and try to inform all the stupid dim witted parents out there that make their toddlers/little kids cut weight, and move on.

Well said!

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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

lol... says the person lobbing from the cinnabon gallery

I'm sorry. Instead of 'comment' I should have said 'aesthetic opinions that bring nothing to the discussion'.

Everyone looking for their dopamine today. Glad I could help. Bullies gonna bull. 

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