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TwoPointTakeDown

Cutting weight... should we finally stop this practice?

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24 minutes ago, TheHeel said:

I think there is a lot of proof that moving up weights has as much or more competitive benefit than cutting weight does. 

talk to micic

not saying that it doesn't work, b/c it worked for me... but  there are many cases where guys can't even make the team if they dont cut

Edited by GockeS

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8 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

I have been out of the day-to-day operations of college and high school wrestling for a few years. My goal was to see if cutting weight was as big of an issue as when I was more involved. I appreciate your feedback now that you've given it. I don't mean to come off that way. But the push back that I've heard on this issue is upsetting. You have brought up good points and I appreciate THAT too. That we agree on this issue, a rather important one in the sport, makes me curious why you were so keen to discredit me as grandstanding? As if they way I brought up the point was argument against the point itself. Plenty of trolls come right out and make their intentions clear that they don't care about moving a conversation forward. You don't seem like that kind of poster. Just that we could've gotten to this point days ago if you had just been upfront. 

How are my goals on this matter in question at all? Eliminate it as a practice, altogether. Educate parents and coaches. Hold our sport accountable. How was that unclear?

And yes, you are a bully for trying to throw shade with no explanation. I'm sorry if that offends you. People get offended when they're called out for inappropriate actions. Don't get me started on this phenomenon. Trying to shut someone down because you don't like their presentation is bullying. Trying to call someone weak for calling you out on your BS is a typical response of a bully. Congrats you're a cliché. 

Okay buddy. Head pat. Let’s break this down 

1. I gave the exact same feedback from the start. I simply added my well supported view you’re just grandstanding. I said all of those other views on weightcutting to other posters in this thread along with addressing you. So get the hell out of here with this “iF YoU haD jUsT” crap. No. I didn’t “bully” you. You just jumped on a chance to be a victim 
 

2. It’s actually quite funny you admitted being out of the loop.. because Your pathetic little “uMM ACKchuaLlY I KnOW sOMeTiME uSE BIG WoRD” along with your condescending attitude about a topic you aren’t up to date on is making you look..

Well honestly just ignorant and stupid instead of grandstanding. Especially because enforcement of the rules. From not being allowed to workout before weigh ins, to being strict about weigh in times and having to weigh in the next day… have gotten much stricter. Coaches also have been getting punished for cheating. Hell, coaches are deliberately going into the database to expose sketchy certifications to win tournaments. 

3. Your coming on here and screeching about “stop the Cutting” with no actual plans, beyond vague platitudes is the equivalent of protesting in the street a couple days then going back to gentrifying the neighborhood. You feel good about showing how good you “good and noble” you are but don’t actually accomplish anything. Especially because you’ve consistently assumed anyone who doesn’t automatically praise and agree with you supports cutting weight. Which leads to.. 
 

4. you have reaked of condescension but don’t have the intellectual toughness to back it up. You keep telling people the reasons not to cut like everyone here doesn’t know them at all. You had the audacity to talk about the “big words” you used and to ask if they were offensive to me.. which is especially insulting considering you’ve clearly only been an assistant at most. Then talking about liability and and admin.. again like we don’t know anything. 
And if you’re who I think you are.. the condescending attitude is especially hilarious. 

5. If your goal is to actually eliminate cutting, your grandstanding and victim playing on themat isn’t going to do anything. Actually solving the problem takes day in day our work and mentoring athletes and coaches. Not getting on here and shaming people who don’t tell you what you want to hear.

6. if you’re going to be arrogant and condescending. Which I myself can quite often be… don’t be a little b!tc# and suddenly cry “bullying”

7. You are going to accomplish nothing because you are so fragile that you called a coach who actually does crack down on cutting weight a bully because your feelings got hurt. 
 

8. either get mentally tough enough to at least handle someone saying you’re grandstanding.. or kick rocks 

 

 

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adjusting the weight class is fine so long as the new weights also require mat side weigh in.  

When you cut weight through starvation and dehydration, you are sluggish.  You have less energy, stamina, strength, and recovery.  You will lose more matches regardless of your grit and technical skill.  

This should be proper motivation to try to earn your spot at a more natural weight.

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23 hours ago, TheHeel said:

I think there is a lot of proof that moving up weights has as much or more competitive benefit than cutting weight does. 

Some guys have success moving up, some don’t.  

But I think you’re forgetting that even when people move up they’re usually still cutting weight, just maybe not as much as they used to.  I’ll agree that cutting TOO MUCH weight is bad (Ridge Lovett, Austin Gomez and Ed Scott come to mind).  That doesn’t mean you should cut zero weight.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Schuteandscore said:

And… it didn’t work, otherwise we wouldn’t still be talking about it

Why do you say id didn't work, do you really want to go back to the -7lb way?

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9 hours ago, ionel said:

Why do you say id didn't work, do you really want to go back to the -7lb way?

No, I am not saying anything like that.  I am saying, why do it again?  Weight cutting is an issue that has gotten a lot better, due to coaches educating their wrestlers.  It might not ever completely go away, but it has improved.   The weight class change did nothing to add to this improvement.   If it did at all, it’s because it shed light and reminded people of the wrestlers who passed, but the weight change itself did nothing. 
 

you mean to tell me nowadays a wrestlers says, “ oh I’d Go 142 on the old scale, so I guess I’m a 149 pounder.”  No, they certify at 141.  The 7 lbs changed nothing for weight cutting except for that particular year of the change.

Edited by Schuteandscore

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4 hours ago, Schuteandscore said:

No, I am not saying anything like that.  I am saying, why do it again?  Weight cutting is an issue that has gotten a lot better, due to coaches educating their wrestlers.  It might not ever completely go away, but it has improved.   The weight class change did nothing to add to this improvement.   If it did at all, it’s because it shed light and reminded people of the wrestlers who passed, but the weight change itself did nothing. 
 

you mean to tell me nowadays a wrestlers says, “ oh I’d Go 142 on the old scale, so I guess I’m a 149 pounder.”  No, they certify at 141.  The 7 lbs changed nothing for weight cutting except for that particular year of the change.

Hour before weigh ins and next day weigh ins made a much bigger difference than adding pounds in my opinion. 
 

Which is why if people really think it’s that big an issue. Mat side weighs might work.. but to me that’s the equivalent of using a Moab to take out an ant. 
 

A person I very much respect and is respected in the wrestling world once talked about the difference in coaches who wrestled before and after 98or99 (the year the rules changed) when it comes to cutting. That even if they were still pretty “old school” about cutting, the way they approached it still was better simply because of the new weigh in rules. I very much agree.

The culture and trend for weight cutting in hs and college is most definitely going the right way. Youth is where I’m seeing the worst. Especially because (in my experience) the worst wrestling dads only wrestled a tiny bit or not at all. And very much have a wannabe tuff guy attitude about what they “think” is old school.
 

I’m a great believer in doing the day in and day out work. Even if I preach or rant occasionally. I actually do my best to actually implement those practices. Or I try to at least. I don’t know if the way this dude is trying to attempt it will ever actually work.

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One thing I remember from doing NCAAs the years surrounding the change was how the weighin area looked right before weighins. Before the change guys were moving, sweating, etc. That year everyone was just calmly leaning up around the outer wall with a drink and something to eat.

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although rule changes are often discussed in regards to weigh-ins, it might be interesting to see a high school program whose team does not cut much weight conduct a home weigh-in differently (but still in accordance with current rule) by having weigh-ins 5 minutes before the start of the match at the table (since the rules only specify a maximum of 1 hour prior and a designated weigh-in area).  after any intros.  after the anthem. although not quite achieving "matside" weigh-in prior to each match, it would certainly impact the first match or 2 of the night for those cutting considerable weight (and would probably ensure the ref is there for the process).

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On 4/29/2022 at 4:03 PM, GockeS said:

talk to micic

not saying that it doesn't work, b/c it worked for me... but  there are many cases where guys can't even make the team if they dont cut

Micic was so far off this year, I am convinced something else must have been going on as well.  There are plenty examples of guys who were able to go up weight classes and have success, this one case does not prove that weight cutting always is a good thing

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56 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Micic was so far off this year, I am convinced something else must have been going on as well.  There are plenty examples of guys who were able to go up weight classes and have success, this one case does not prove that weight cutting always is a good thing

never said weight cutting was good.. or that micic proves all

just gave an example to counter the vague  statement: there is way more evidence of ppl doing better not cutting... 

there are arguments both ways... so many ppl just see their side.

i lived both sides

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I suggested on another forum that weigh-ins should be handled the same way as drug testing -- several times during the course of the year (not the season) wrestlers are required to step on a scale with no notice.  They can't wrestle at any weight below the average of their most recent x weigh-ins.  No need to weigh in before duals and tournaments.

Nobody liked the idea, though.

 

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And guys. Just know. The TS also doesn’t think we know the benefits of not cutting. 
 

Though he seems to have run away. Hopefully he’s actually back into wrestling and actually contributing 

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53 minutes ago, jdalu75 said:

Nobody liked the idea, though.

 

I like it. A lot. Promotes healthy living. Neuters dehydration. Saves practice hours.  Shaves an hr + off arrival times.

Details though. You would need to have a national disinterested bureaucracy to maintain the random draw, keep track of the weights, and enforce the rules. Like the opc with messier data.

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10 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Like the opc with messier data.

Messier screwed up some.  A couple of the items on his original list aren't there.  And one item has two Messier numbers.  We'd need to be better than that (right now, we're not).

 

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On 4/29/2022 at 5:19 PM, jp157 said:

Okay buddy. Head pat. Let’s break this down 

1. I gave the exact same feedback from the start. I simply added my well supported view you’re just grandstanding. I said all of those other views on weightcutting to other posters in this thread along with addressing you. So get the hell out of here with this “iF YoU haD jUsT” crap. No. I didn’t “bully” you. You just jumped on a chance to be a victim 
 

2. It’s actually quite funny you admitted being out of the loop.. because Your pathetic little “uMM ACKchuaLlY I KnOW sOMeTiME uSE BIG WoRD” along with your condescending attitude about a topic you aren’t up to date on is making you look..

Well honestly just ignorant and stupid instead of grandstanding. Especially because enforcement of the rules. From not being allowed to workout before weigh ins, to being strict about weigh in times and having to weigh in the next day… have gotten much stricter. Coaches also have been getting punished for cheating. Hell, coaches are deliberately going into the database to expose sketchy certifications to win tournaments. 

3. Your coming on here and screeching about “stop the Cutting” with no actual plans, beyond vague platitudes is the equivalent of protesting in the street a couple days then going back to gentrifying the neighborhood. You feel good about showing how good you “good and noble” you are but don’t actually accomplish anything. Especially because you’ve consistently assumed anyone who doesn’t automatically praise and agree with you supports cutting weight. Which leads to.. 
 

4. you have reaked of condescension but don’t have the intellectual toughness to back it up. You keep telling people the reasons not to cut like everyone here doesn’t know them at all. You had the audacity to talk about the “big words” you used and to ask if they were offensive to me.. which is especially insulting considering you’ve clearly only been an assistant at most. Then talking about liability and and admin.. again like we don’t know anything. 
And if you’re who I think you are.. the condescending attitude is especially hilarious. 

5. If your goal is to actually eliminate cutting, your grandstanding and victim playing on themat isn’t going to do anything. Actually solving the problem takes day in day our work and mentoring athletes and coaches. Not getting on here and shaming people who don’t tell you what you want to hear.

6. if you’re going to be arrogant and condescending. Which I myself can quite often be… don’t be a little b!tc# and suddenly cry “bullying”

7. You are going to accomplish nothing because you are so fragile that you called a coach who actually does crack down on cutting weight a bully because your feelings got hurt. 
 

8. either get mentally tough enough to at least handle someone saying you’re grandstanding.. or kick rocks 

 

 

What I have gathered from this message, is that you would like me to fall in line. Sorry, no. 

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2 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

The very few wrestlers that top out at 120lbs would appreciate it. 

Isn't that how society works now? The needs of the loudest few outweigh the needs of the majority?

 

I wouldn't mind seeing 122, 129, 136, 142, 149, 157, 165, 174, 184, 205, 285. Might be a good way to grow the sport. Add a weight.

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