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Katie

Naturals at wrestling

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Just now, jackwebster said:

Perfect illustration of the problem with the distinction. Metcalf's focus, tenacity, tank, etc. are no less natural than Dake's "feel" or whatever else you are seeing. Metcalf's single-mindedness IS a gift that others don't have. Dan Gable's monomania is a gift that others don't have.

We're not dealing in absolutes here.  Nobody is all one thing or all another.   I would classify Dake as a natural and Metcalf as a trained product, if we're sorting guys into those buckets.  

A lot of this is feel, eye test, so obviously flawed, but who cares?

Metcalf wrestled with incredible intensity.   He was also very rigid and almost robotic at times in his movements.  Dake seemingly felt comfortable in any position, and moved with rare fluidity when needed. That's why he's the natural. There are things he's capable of that Metcalf plainly isn't. The reverse isn't true. 

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I guess the most "natural" wrestler I ever saw was Cary Kolat.  Also, to me Troy Nickerson always made it look easy for him.
I would say that a "natural" in soccer would be someone who would be very good at falling down and acting like he/she was paralyzed if anyone got within a foot of them.
 

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15 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

The ability/desire to work hard is just as much a natural gift as a bunch of fast twitch muscles.

I think there is something inherent in the Metcalfs of the world who push hard work to another level. But it’s not the same as having Dake type natural talent.

Hard work is more about motivation/mind set while natural talent is not something you can do all that much about.

Edited by BuckyBadger

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26 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

The ability/desire to work hard is just as much a natural gift as a bunch of fast twitch muscles.

Cool...if that is what you think...who is arguing it??  Is your argument that you feel that there is no such thing as "natural" versus "trained"?  Again....cool...other people think there is.

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I think the guy from CA, Bryan Moreno?, was a natural. Started wrestling in 9th grade, had a losing record and won CA state the next 3 years. If that doesn't scream natural talent then I don't know what else it was. 

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21 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Cool...if that is what you think...who is arguing it??  Is your argument that you feel that there is no such thing as "natural" versus "trained"?  Again....cool...other people think there is.

Yes, that's what I think. And, as you say, it's cool if you don't buy it. I just thought the OP was asking our opinion on this question. Maybe I misread it. If so, my bad.

Edited by jackwebster

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36 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Hard work is more about motivation/mind set while natural talent is not something you can do all that much about.

I don't know if you can do that much about motivation/mind set. How do get someone to believe that playing and winning a game is the most important thing in the world?

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Every top wrestler-- every one, no exceptions-- is highly trained. They all have plenty of ability as well.  It's really folly to say that one guy is a natural and the other is not when they all have been coached like crazy for years. This is true in soccer, too. Maybe there are other sports where there are true naturals. Track might be one. But not wrestling. Dake, for instance, had a father who is a wrestling coach and was competing all over the country from a young age.

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41 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

This is where a great coach comes in and figures out what makes a guy motivated.

Maybe, but finding a kid with the motivation ceiling of John Smith is as rare as finding a kid with the feel ceiling of John Smith.

 

***Edit

Edited by jackwebster

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5 hours ago, jackwebster said:

No bc the distinction is too often associated with racist stereotypes.

That's crazy talk.

Anyways, I'd say the naturals are guys like RBY, David Carr, Starocci and Brooks. The trained athletes are guys more like Suriano, Yianni, Deakin, and Max Dean.

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

Every top wrestler-- every one, no exceptions-- is highly trained. They all have plenty of ability as well.  It's really folly to say that one guy is a natural and the other is not when they all have been coached like crazy for years. This is true in soccer, too. Maybe there are other sports where there are true naturals. Track might be one. But not wrestling. Dake, for instance, had a father who is a wrestling coach and was competing all over the country from a young age.

Just cut-and-pasting from a previous post to clarify what I think Ibrahimovic meant by a natural:

Ronaldo is absurdly athletic, yet Ibrahimovic said he was a trained product, not a natural.

So what I think Ibrahimovic meant was that Ronaldo and Messi are equally masters of technique, but that Messi gets to a higher level by his ability to creatively improvise, making his incredible technical skill fade into the background.  And having mastery of soccer at that level simply cannot be taught. Ergo, Messi is more than a trained product.

Perhaps “natural” isn’t the best term, but that’s the term Ibrahimovic used.

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Damn...thanks ...I coached for 35 years, had many kids who naturally had great balance, hips and strength...others who had very little coordination or athletic ability....and it had nothing to do with race..

 

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4 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

I think the guy from CA, Bryan Moreno?, was a natural. Started wrestling in 9th grade, had a losing record and won CA state the next 3 years. If that doesn't scream natural talent then I don't know what else it was. 

If it was natural, wouldn’t he have won as a freshman?

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3 hours ago, Fletcher said:

That's crazy talk.

Anyways, I'd say the naturals are guys like RBY, David Carr, Starocci and Brooks. The trained athletes are guys more like Suriano, Yianni, Deakin, and Max Dean.

Where would Nick Lee and Gable Steveson fit in?

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10 hours ago, Katie said:

Famous soccer Zlatan Ibrahimovic was once asked whether he thought Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo was better. (For those of you who don’t know, since 2007, Messi and Ronaldo have consistently been named among the top three players in the world, and have together taken the top spot 12 out of 14 years.)

Ibrahimovic said that Messi was better because he is a natural, whereas Ronaldo is a trained product.

Do you buy into that distinction? If so, who are some of the naturals at wrestling out there?

Messi was brought from Argentina to Spain and given growth drugs as a kid. I'd say he was trained plenty.

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7 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Messi was brought from Argentina to Spain and given growth drugs as a kid. I'd say he was trained plenty.

I literally posted twice in this thread — including once in reply to you — that when Ibrahimovic described Messi as a “natural,” he likely meant that Messi is more than a trained product. I think it’s indisputable that Messi is highly trained. 

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4 minutes ago, Katie said:

I literally posted twice in this thread — including once in reply to you — that when Ibrahimovic described Messi as a “natural,” he likely meant that Messi is more than a trained product. I think it’s indisputable that Messi is highly trained. 

OK, the way you "explain" what Ibrahimovic said is to make his statement pointless and meaningless. Messi is a "natural" who is also "highly trained." So he is both, or perhaps neither. Ronaldo is highly trained, but he is also natural and blessed by one of the world's great physiques. David Carr is "natural," never mind that he shared a household with a 3X NCAA champ who surely helped train him (and also gave him some primo genes). The Dean brothers are highly trained, never mind that they both have a brother who is an NCAA champ and a dad who was an NCAA finalist, suggesting some natural ability. The fact is that no matter who you name, he is highly trained and has natural ability. Without both you are winning an NCAA title.

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When I think of someone who trained their way up in wrestling, I think of Andy Hrovat. Nothing flashy, nothing head turning -- just worked hard as hell to make an Olympic team. Became a true student of the sport, learned how to bridge some talent gaps, and won enough to get a flight out to Beijing and some Team USA gear. The American dream.

On the same Olympic team, you got Ben Askren, who was practically made to wrestle. I don't doubt for a second that Ben worked harder than most while he was wrestling, but his floor for success in this sport was much higher than someone like Andy's. He might not have to work as hard as Andy to win, but that doesn't mean he doesn't.

Of course, margins of difference become slimmer and slimmer as you get closer to the top. And at the end of the day, they're both Olympians. Who cares how they got there. Once you're in GOAT territory like Messi and Ronaldo, you can start splitting hairs.

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