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Stuart1

My take on Dake

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This love affair with Dake is comical. This guy can do no wrong to anyone on this forum. He's one of the cockiest people ive seen, yet thats a strength. Soneone else acts that way, and half the forum would be up and arms about it. JB won us a gold. He is undefeated. He has been praised up and down on this forum. We love him. He has been talked about on here that he may never lose. All of a sudden Dake beats him? He is gonna pass him in the next year? Where does this unreasonable obsession with kid dynamite come from. The first match is more of an indication of where they are than the 2nd one imo. Dake isnt close. He's still sick though not saying he's not. JB is the best in the world.

 

Enough with the "us" and "we". I root for him, but he didn't win me anything last summer and I owe him nothing (and vice versa).

 

Dake has been underestimated by most for over 4 years now. He overcame Paulsen, Taylor and Howe in a couple of hours, when many didn't think he'd beat any of them. Then, it took him all of one match to change his style and take Burroughs to OT. If you don't like how he answers questions, don't listen.

Burroughs hasn't been challenged by an American for years. It will make things more interesting for Burroughs to be challenged both internationally and at home - I have the distinct feeling that neither Dake or Taylor is going to stop until they catch him. 2016 is a long time away, it'll be tough to stay on top that long.

'

JB isn't much older than Dake, and to say he hasn't been challenged by an American "in years" makes it sound like he's been doing this for 10 years. He's wrestling freestyle a little over 2 years at this point, and is unbeaten with world and olympic gold. Dake isn't beating him now, tomorrow, or next year.

If injuries come into play, maybe down the road it could happen. Taylor? Not even close.

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2 things about Burroughs:

 

1. He has lost periods to Howe, so to say he hasn't been challenged is just wrong.

 

2. He does a much better job walking the line between confident and cocky than Dake. Dake says things that he should believe if he wants to be great, but needs to keep them to himself until he earns the right to say them.

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Wow.....people are just crazy sometimes.....people do realize that Burroughs is undefeated on the senior level...right?? He did tech Dake rather easily in the first match? Now Dake is going to beat Burroughs in 2016....man people are crazy!! This guy is probably the best overal wrestler in the world right now. No disrespect to Dake, he would probably be on the team at any other weight that Burrough or Howe isn't at (yes I still think Howe is better than Dake). I love Dake's confidence, his style, his desire, etc......but can't stand his nut huggers on this forum....almost worse than the PSU and Iowa nut huggers.

 

Brog, you and are I finally in agreement!

 

Uh oh.....I think a very warm place just froze over?!?! LOL! :lol:

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I am definitely no Dake fan-boy as my rooting for Taylor is well-established, but for those acting like it's impossible for Dake to overtake Burroughs seem off the mark to me as well.

 

First of all, under the actual FILA rules, Dake WON the second match. Granted, Burroughs might have attacked more if he was losing under Criteria, and the Overtime rule is much better. But, that has to give you pause in acting like this is a done deal.

 

Second, Dake and Taylor are just getting started in international freestyle, whereas Burroughs has been concentrating on it for two years now. Dake and Taylor have proven themselves to be master tacticians in folkstyle, and I think it is reasonable to think that they will become much better freestylers in the years to come.

 

Third,right now there is a huge gap in strength that I think will be closed a bit. Dake, in particular, is visibly small for 163. Keep in mind that 163 with a 24 hr. weigh in is about like 170 under college rules, and he gave considerable thought to going 157 this year. A year from now, he will be bigger and stronger and that will make a difference.

 

Fourth, history has proven how much easier it is to get to the top and stay at the top in this sport. So many guys have won a couple of world titles at a young age and seemed to be unbeatable, only to get overtaken in their mid 20's. A guy like Ali Reza Dabir of Iran comes to mind. More recently, Kudhokhov or Russia. Adam Satiev of Russia also- he appeared to be untouchable when he stormed through the 2000 Olympics, by 2004 he was like #3 on the Russian depth chart. In the United States, only John Smith has been able to put together a truly extended streak of being clearly the worlds best.

 

That said, there is zero question that Jordan Burroughs is one of the best wrestlers I have ever seen, anywhere, ever. Definitely the best american freestyle wrestler since Smith. But the young guys coming after him are two of the best college wrestlers of all time imo (with Taylor, that statement has more to do with his dominance than his "hardware" before anyone jumps on it) who are reknowned for their incredible focus to be the best. And it would be a mistake to overlook Andrew Howe- this guy is World Medalist caliber as well imo. It's going to be incredible to watch.

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Unless Dake beats top-tier international competition, I'm not willing to compare him to Burroughs.

 

It's one thing to be elite in the US, and to successfully train specifically for the world champ. It's another thing to go through a world-level tournament, and beat a series of national champs, all with different styles. There's a reason the WTT process is more protective of returning world medalists.

 

Don't get me wrong. Dake's a stud. And he could go on to prove he's up there with Burroughs. But he hasn't proved it yet.

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Unless Dake beats top-tier international competition, I'm not willing to compare him to Burroughs.

 

It's one thing to be elite in the US, and to successfully train specifically for the world champ. It's another thing to go through a world-level tournament, and beat a series of national champs, all with different styles. There's a reason the WTT process is more protective of returning world medalists.

 

Don't get me wrong. Dake's a stud. And he could go on to prove he's up there with Burroughs. But he hasn't proved it yet.

 

Agreed on all points. I suspect that Dake would have a shot at beating a Goudarzi, Aliev, or a Tsargush right now, but it's completely unproven speculation at this point.

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This love affair with Dake is comical. This guy can do no wrong to anyone on this forum. He's one of the cockiest people ive seen, yet thats a strength. Soneone else acts that way, and half the forum would be up and arms about it. JB won us a gold. He is undefeated. He has been praised up and down on this forum. We love him. He has been talked about on here that he may never lose. All of a sudden Dake beats him? He is gonna pass him in the next year? Where does this unreasonable obsession with kid dynamite come from. The first match is more of an indication of where they are than the 2nd one imo. Dake isnt close. He's still sick though not saying he's not. JB is the best in the world.

 

Enough with the "us" and "we". I root for him, but he didn't win me anything last summer and I owe him nothing (and vice versa).

 

Dake has been underestimated by most for over 4 years now. He overcame Paulsen, Taylor and Howe in a couple of hours, when many didn't think he'd beat any of them. Then, it took him all of one match to change his style and take Burroughs to OT. If you don't like how he answers questions, don't listen.

Burroughs hasn't been challenged by an American for years. It will make things more interesting for Burroughs to be challenged both internationally and at home - I have the distinct feeling that neither Dake or Taylor is going to stop until they catch him. 2016 is a long time away, it'll be tough to stay on top that long.

 

For the record. He did win "us" an olympic gold. The Olympics are about athletes representing their COUNTRY. JB represented the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. What are we? AMERICANS. Jordan Burroughs won that Gold Medal for himself and for the USA. When you make Olympic and World teams, you are there to represent your country. That is why you wrestle with USA on your singlet. That is why when they do the medal counts, they do it by COUNTRY. You are wrong here, please dont try to defend yourself in some ridiculous way. It is clear cut.

 

And if you dont like what I have to say, dont read it. Right?

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Anyone who says Dake is "too cocky" has clearly never competed at that high of a level in anything. Kyle Dake has had more success as a wrestler than most of you have had in ANY facet of your life. Get over it. You don't like him because he's proved you wrong every step of the way and now you have to find nitpicky things to harp on. You sound like a bunch of little school girls. Grow the hell up.

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Anyone who says Dake is "too cocky" has clearly never competed at that high of a level in anything. Kyle Dake has had more success as a wrestler than most of you have had in ANY facet of your life. Get over it. You don't like him because he's proved you wrong every step of the way and now you have to find nitpicky things to harp on. You sound like a bunch of little school girls. Grow the hell up.

 

You assume too much. You dont know jack **** though.

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Anyone who says Dake is "too cocky" has clearly never competed at that high of a level in anything. Kyle Dake has had more success as a wrestler than most of you have had in ANY facet of your life. Get over it. You don't like him because he's proved you wrong every step of the way and now you have to find nitpicky things to harp on. You sound like a bunch of little school girls. Grow the hell up.

 

You assume too much. You dont know jack **** though.

 

Enlighten me then.

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Anyone who says Dake is "too cocky" has clearly never competed at that high of a level in anything. Kyle Dake has had more success as a wrestler than most of you have had in ANY facet of your life. Get over it. You don't like him because he's proved you wrong every step of the way and now you have to find nitpicky things to harp on. You sound like a bunch of little school girls. Grow the hell up.

 

 

..post of the year!

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This love affair with Dake is comical. This guy can do no wrong to anyone on this forum. He's one of the cockiest people ive seen, yet thats a strength. Soneone else acts that way, and half the forum would be up and arms about it. JB won us a gold. He is undefeated. He has been praised up and down on this forum. We love him. He has been talked about on here that he may never lose. All of a sudden Dake beats him? He is gonna pass him in the next year? Where does this unreasonable obsession with kid dynamite come from. The first match is more of an indication of where they are than the 2nd one imo. Dake isnt close. He's still sick though not saying he's not. JB is the best in the world.

 

Enough with the "us" and "we". I root for him, but he didn't win me anything last summer and I owe him nothing (and vice versa).

 

Dake has been underestimated by most for over 4 years now. He overcame Paulsen, Taylor and Howe in a couple of hours, when many didn't think he'd beat any of them. Then, it took him all of one match to change his style and take Burroughs to OT. If you don't like how he answers questions, don't listen.

Burroughs hasn't been challenged by an American for years. It will make things more interesting for Burroughs to be challenged both internationally and at home - I have the distinct feeling that neither Dake or Taylor is going to stop until they catch him. 2016 is a long time away, it'll be tough to stay on top that long.

 

For the record. He did win "us" an olympic gold. The Olympics are about athletes representing their COUNTRY. JB represented the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. What are we? AMERICANS. Jordan Burroughs won that Gold Medal for himself and for the USA. When you make Olympic and World teams, you are there to represent your country. That is why you wrestle with USA on your singlet. That is why when they do the medal counts, they do it by COUNTRY. You are wrong here, please dont try to defend yourself in some ridiculous way. It is clear cut.

 

And if you dont like what I have to say, dont read it. Right?

 

Where an athlete is from is ancillary to competition. Half of the Russian wrestlers leave and go compete for countries where they can make the team, so clearly they aren't doing it for country, it is for themselves. Burroughs and Varner didn't win me anything, period - and anyone who lives vicariously through the accomplishments of another, especially when they have nothing to do with it other than live in the same country, is weak. I guess I'm just too self reliant find pride in the accomplishments of others. You're no doubt a gov't worker, so you're welcome, I'll keep paying your salary...

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Thanks for Ohio_Wrestling_Admin for that post. I think that is an excellent description of the current dynamic at 74K.

 

I also think that Dake could do a better job of minding his statements. As a New Yorker it has been interesting to follow his career and watch him develop into one of the all-time college greats. I think that he's been on the receiving end of bad sportsmanship from booing fans and he's attracted unnecessary animus and disrespect from the PSU faithful, but I can't remember Dake conducting himself without class on the mat. We all know that you can't enter into any endeavor in life without confidence that you will achieve it. He could do a better job with the press and keep his confidence to himself in my opinion. Those who are asking us with this opinion to grow up have no understanding of tact or magnanimity. There are reasons why these concepts exist.

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Where an athlete is from is ancillary to competition. Half of the Russian wrestlers leave and go compete for countries where they can make the team, so clearly they aren't doing it for country, it is for themselves. Burroughs and Varner didn't win me anything, period - and anyone who lives vicariously through the accomplishments of another, especially when they have nothing to do with it other than live in the same country, is weak. I guess I'm just too self reliant find pride in the accomplishments of others. You're no doubt a gov't worker, so you're welcome, I'll keep paying your salary...

 

Im not a gov't worker lol. Matter of fact, I dont agree with most of the gov't agenda these days. You must think im some overwhelming hillbilly patriot or something, based on the fact that I believe the Olympics were created for different nations to compete against each other. Its always supposed to be about the countries athletic abilities as a whole. Hence the medal count. You compete for yourself and your country. He won our nation, which we are a part of, a gold medal. He also won himself a gold medal. Why cant it be both? Why run around the mat with the American flag around your back, if your country means nothing to you? Im not living vicariously through JB. Im glad you can add a pat on the back for yourself at the end there. My personal opinion of you just based off this forum, is that you suck. We can argue about that next if you'd like.

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Anyone who says Dake is "too cocky" has clearly never competed at that high of a level in anything. Kyle Dake has had more success as a wrestler than most of you have had in ANY facet of your life. Get over it. You don't like him because he's proved you wrong every step of the way and now you have to find nitpicky things to harp on. You sound like a bunch of little school girls. Grow the hell up.

 

 

..post of the year!

 

If that is the post of the year, this forum is seriously lacking...

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Anyone who says Dake is "too cocky" has clearly never competed at that high of a level in anything. Kyle Dake has had more success as a wrestler than most of you have had in ANY facet of your life. Get over it. You don't like him because he's proved you wrong every step of the way and now you have to find nitpicky things to harp on. You sound like a bunch of little school girls. Grow the hell up.

 

 

..post of the year!

 

If that is the post of the year, this forum is seriously lacking...

 

Still waiting for your reasoning. Of course, you won't give it because your argument is ****.

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I am definitely no Dake fan-boy as my rooting for Taylor is well-established, but for those acting like it's impossible for Dake to overtake Burroughs seem off the mark to me as well.

 

First of all, under the actual FILA rules, Dake WON the second match. Granted, Burroughs might have attacked more if he was losing under Criteria, and the Overtime rule is much better. But, that has to give you pause in acting like this is a done deal.

 

Second, Dake and Taylor are just getting started in international freestyle, whereas Burroughs has been concentrating on it for two years now. Dake and Taylor have proven themselves to be master tacticians in folkstyle, and I think it is reasonable to think that they will become much better freestylers in the years to come.

 

Third,right now there is a huge gap in strength that I think will be closed a bit. Dake, in particular, is visibly small for 163. Keep in mind that 163 with a 24 hr. weigh in is about like 170 under college rules, and he gave considerable thought to going 157 this year. A year from now, he will be bigger and stronger and that will make a difference.

 

Fourth, history has proven how much easier it is to get to the top and stay at the top in this sport. So many guys have won a couple of world titles at a young age and seemed to be unbeatable, only to get overtaken in their mid 20's. A guy like Ali Reza Dabir of Iran comes to mind. More recently, Kudhokhov or Russia. Adam Satiev of Russia also- he appeared to be untouchable when he stormed through the 2000 Olympics, by 2004 he was like #3 on the Russian depth chart. In the United States, only John Smith has been able to put together a truly extended streak of being clearly the worlds best.

 

That said, there is zero question that Jordan Burroughs is one of the best wrestlers I have ever seen, anywhere, ever. Definitely the best american freestyle wrestler since Smith. But the young guys coming after him are two of the best college wrestlers of all time imo (with Taylor, that statement has more to do with his dominance than his "hardware" before anyone jumps on it) who are reknowned for their incredible focus to be the best. And it would be a mistake to overlook Andrew Howe- this guy is World Medalist caliber as well imo. It's going to be incredible to watch.

 

A gem of a post/analysis. I agree. I would only suggest that Burroughs has also shown the ability to grow and adjust as well. Coming out of college he was a motion power double guy (a more active version of Williams). Soon after he learned a single and a variety of finishes. Now it is a variety of active shots, re-shots, and chaining par terre. Then it was said he could be tied up, and he found an answer to that (maybe he forgot to use that in Dake II).

 

Burroughs tends to find an answer for wrestlers who are competitive with him..... Dake wasn't the first match but was the second. I will be really curious to see how the next one goes. If Burroughs has one weakness it's he occasionally gets in so deep he gives up tilt counters. Something Smith had as well but learned to adapt.

 

FWIW, I think Dake has that sort of potential that B. Satiev turned into ability. The ability to find innovative and creative ways to win matches. What he doesn't have is a go to offense on a consistent basis (Satiev had shucks and throw byes for example). He will need this against Burroughs and internationally. Trying to just counter Burroughs gets you tech'd (or close losses internationally). Getting after him almost gets you a win. Can he do this regularly?

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that whole weight class was a pleasure to watch. so much talent. i wish there were more open tournaments so everyone could mix it up together, us, russians, etc.

 

i'm no cornell fan but i am in awe at dake's competitiveness, poise and athleticism. he just happened to run into to one of the best wrestlers in the world. nothing but respect for both of them.

 

also, burroughs is just unreal. so pumped to see what happens in budapest. his career is one people will be talking about for a long time, even if he never wrestled again after today.

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Where an athlete is from is ancillary to competition. Half of the Russian wrestlers leave and go compete for countries where they can make the team, so clearly they aren't doing it for country, it is for themselves. Burroughs and Varner didn't win me anything, period - and anyone who lives vicariously through the accomplishments of another, especially when they have nothing to do with it other than live in the same country, is weak. I guess I'm just too self reliant find pride in the accomplishments of others. You're no doubt a gov't worker, so you're welcome, I'll keep paying your salary...

 

Im not a gov't worker lol. Matter of fact, I dont agree with most of the gov't agenda these days. You must think im some overwhelming hillbilly patriot or something, based on the fact that I believe the Olympics were created for different nations to compete against each other. Its always supposed to be about the countries athletic abilities as a whole. Hence the medal count. You compete for yourself and your country. He won our nation, which we are a part of, a gold medal. He also won himself a gold medal. Why cant it be both? Why run around the mat with the American flag around your back, if your country means nothing to you? Im not living vicariously through JB. Im glad you can add a pat on the back for yourself at the end there. My personal opinion of you just based off this forum, is that you suck. We can argue about that next if you'd like.

 

Now I know what teachers go through. Listen, this isn't 1900, whatever reason the modern Olympics had for starting has long since vanished. Athletes from all over the world move countries like free agents in order to get money (for both training and compensation for winning) and opportunity. I don't say "we" when Peyton Manning leads Denver to a win. I'm not on the team, I didn't play. I'm a fan. I root for them because I choose to. The US Team represents the US like Tom Brady represents the Patriots - Everyone in Boston cheers for him and and wants them to win, but there is no "we"... except for those who are sheep and live vicariously through others. Medal counts are irrelevant - it wouldn't change anything if they stopped keeping them. But the sheep do enjoy them.

 

I cheer on team USA because I'm a citizen and I've followed many of those guys for years, but not for second do I take ownership of their (athlete, family, and coaches) accomplishments. I have my own, I don't need to live through others.

 

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Burroughs wants to wrestle dake as little as possible because the more they wrestle the more dake adjusts, amd if dake sees him 2 maybe even one more time he will never lose to him again, like Taylor he just knows how to beat him

 

That you think Dake is just going to bypass JB after another match or two is comical. Dake was Burroughs training partner leading up to the Olympics last year so I think it's safe to say JB doesn't seemed real concerned with avoiding Dake. If that wasn't enough exposure to Jordan to beat him, then one or two more matches is highly unlikely to get him over the hump in itself, especially in the way you predict where Dake never loses to him again.

 

Actually no he only wrestled burroughs in two live situations and drilled with him one time, he was a training partner for varner i believe, or herbert memory fails me currently but i KNOW he only wrestled burroughs in 2 situations knowing this would happen eventually

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Actually no he only wrestled burroughs in two live situations and drilled with him one time, he was a training partner for varner i believe, or herbert memory fails me currently but i KNOW he only wrestled burroughs in 2 situations knowing this would happen eventually

Hah, it was Herbert. Would be kinda absurd for him to be Varner's training partner 50 pounds less than Jake yes? That was Cael.

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Just about every "elite" wrestler is "cocky" some just don't verbalize it , doesn't make them less cocky . Dake wears his emotions on his sleeve , and confidence is paramount to success in this sport.

 

Dake has the drive to eventually beat Burroughs , and yes Burroughs has an advantage at the moment in terms of training freestyle and his mental edge of proven success at the highest level. Once Dake gets some wins against elite international competition and trains freestyle longer I wouldn't pencil Burroughs in as an automatic for 2016, but still our likely rep.

 

Doubtful Burroughs Tech falls Dake again IMHO. Dake has the ability /drive to close the gap quickly. Taylor will also likely get a win over Dake at some point , but Taylor doesn't seem to have the horse power to do that consistently.

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At the 2010 NCAA's (Dake's freshman year), Jordan Leen gave an interview during the 141 finals match in which he talked about Dake's mindset - some of his comments in retrospect seem incredibly prescient. If anyone wants to hear what Leen said about Kyle, here's a link, it starts at about 4:23 -

 

 

For those of us who have watched him closely over the past 4-5 years, its pretty clear, what makes this guy so special is his heart, his drive to win. If "cockiness" is part and parcel of that, I'll take it!

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I think I am going to enjoy watching the Cornell / Dake fans who have a pretty strong track record of using Dake's close wins over Taylor to state how superior Dake is to Taylor ("he was never close to losing") now take the completely opposite point of view with regards to Dake and Burroughs.

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Where an athlete is from is ancillary to competition. Half of the Russian wrestlers leave and go compete for countries where they can make the team, so clearly they aren't doing it for country, it is for themselves. Burroughs and Varner didn't win me anything, period - and anyone who lives vicariously through the accomplishments of another, especially when they have nothing to do with it other than live in the same country, is weak. I guess I'm just too self reliant find pride in the accomplishments of others. You're no doubt a gov't worker, so you're welcome, I'll keep paying your salary...

 

Im not a gov't worker lol. Matter of fact, I dont agree with most of the gov't agenda these days. You must think im some overwhelming hillbilly patriot or something, based on the fact that I believe the Olympics were created for different nations to compete against each other. Its always supposed to be about the countries athletic abilities as a whole. Hence the medal count. You compete for yourself and your country. He won our nation, which we are a part of, a gold medal. He also won himself a gold medal. Why cant it be both? Why run around the mat with the American flag around your back, if your country means nothing to you? Im not living vicariously through JB. Im glad you can add a pat on the back for yourself at the end there. My personal opinion of you just based off this forum, is that you suck. We can argue about that next if you'd like.

 

Now I know what teachers go through. Listen, this isn't 1900, whatever reason the modern Olympics had for starting has long since vanished. Athletes from all over the world move countries like free agents in order to get money (for both training and compensation for winning) and opportunity. I don't say "we" when Peyton Manning leads Denver to a win. I'm not on the team, I didn't play. I'm a fan. I root for them because I choose to. The US Team represents the US like Tom Brady represents the Patriots - Everyone in Boston cheers for him and and wants them to win, but there is no "we"... except for those who are sheep and live vicariously through others. Medal counts are irrelevant - it wouldn't change anything if they stopped keeping them. But the sheep do enjoy them.

 

I cheer on team USA because I'm a citizen and I've followed many of those guys for years, but not for second do I take ownership of their (athlete, family, and coaches) accomplishments. I have my own, I don't need to live through others.

 

 

Again I really dont care what you have to say. You can say Im living through others because I think the Olympics are meant to represent countries all you want. If you knew me and my opinions on alot of things, you wouldnt call me a sheep. I have my own opinions. Like the fact that I dont like you for one. I dont need to live through others either. I had a pretty successful career for one, and even spent some time in the minors. I live life pretty well, and it's not by being a sheep. Jackass.

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