US Open Freestyle Seeds

[nhs67 2,139]

So for 65 and 70 it means that the winners of the semi-finals make Final X, correct?

[Major Kong 89]

4 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

So for 65 and 70 it means that the winners of the semi-finals make Final X, correct?

Semis at WTT? Yes, I believe so.

[BAC 249]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

US Open winner doesn't get pass to Final X, though?

They get the #1 seed at WTT.   Are you suggesting that should be what it is instead?

For a guy like Pantaleo or Oliver, that is huge.  It puts them opposite Zain and the loser of them two at WTT.

I think just getting the #1 seed at WTTs isn't enough.  I think it should be a bye to Final X -- or, if one of the Final X spots has already been claimed, then a bye to WTT finals, where they square off with the winner of the challenge tournament for the other Final X spot.  

Two reasons:

1. It makes good sense policy-wise, because it protects the guy who proves himself to be best in the country (among those who entered) by putting him closer to the finish line and minimizing his risk of injury en route to competing for a spot on the world team.

2.  It revitalizes this once-great tournament, as now its a must-attend event for everyone with world team aspirations who isn't already in Final X.  It means they're only a couple wins away from the world team, and nearly guaranteed to receive USAW funding by placing in the top 3 overall.

I think some of you guys don't remember how amazing this tournament once was... it was the domestic freestyle highlight of the year, like WTTs except bigger.  It was watered down a few years ago when USAW decided to just hand a spot in the finals to guys who medaled in the last preceding worlds/Olympics.  I support that decision, but it means the very top guys won't show up.  But now, many of the top 2-5 guys aren't showing up either.  That's partly because there's so many other ways to qualify for WTTs now, and also because they're doing all these other age group tournaments the same weekend.  I think a lot of these guys are deciding that the modest reward -- a decent seed at WTTs (which doesn't matter much when only one guy can go overseas), and bragging rights against modest competition -- is offset by the risk of injury.

I'm sorry, but guys like Ramos and Tromble, fine wrestlers though they are, ought not be the top seed at USA Nationals at 57kg/92kg.  Look at the brackets from even 10 years ago and you'll see how far the quality of this has dropped.  Call me a whiner/complainer if you want, but I think its a legitimate topic to talk about how we can resurrect USAW's once-signature event.

[EM_1996 16]

I agree with those who think this current system has obvious drawbacks.  It is actually quite amazing how few matches some of our top guys wrestle in any given year.  As long as they medal at Worlds/Olympics, there is now little incentive for them to show up to other events.  It is quite a contrast to the top guys back in the '80s and '90s.  Guys seemed to have competed much more frequently back then.

[steamboat_charlie v2 1,176]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:58 PM, nhs67 said:

Sasso is a live Underdog on Pantaleo.  I think on his best day Sasso takes 3rd here and if Pantaleo isn't in top shape, Sasso can win that.

I don't see any scenario where Pantaleo doesn't blow straight through Sasso.  Would be happy to be proven wrong, though.  

[nhs67 2,139]

20 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

I don't see any scenario where Pantaleo doesn't blow straight through Sasso.  Would be happy to be proven wrong, though.  

I most certainly would not.

[Idaho 1,404]

12 hours ago, juniorvarsity said:

LOL No. How about look at how good USA wrestling is now and stop complaining? There are plenty of great matches to watch every year. Freestyle has never been more exciting. The guys you complain about not competing domestically have UWW Ranking Series Events on their calendar.

Did you see the question he was responding to? " Is it me, or has some of the prestige of a US Open title been lost?" He is correct in saying it has lost it's prestige. It's okay to say that and still know that USA wrestling is still in great shape.  Unless of course you are not old enough to remember brackets at the Open that make this year look junior high.

[spartak 18]

I agree with some statements above. I thing it's horrible system. They took away from excitement of real national championship. I used to come to watch it regularly, and now I don't

[spladle08 1,196]

It really was such a good tournament for awhile. 
Now just a complete after-thought as our top guys have shifted to pursuing world-level medals or nothing. 
So yeah....
Clearly I'd love to see our top guys as much as possible. 
But man are we solid at the top, can't really knock their approach if we're getting it done when it matters. 
I guess we could game the system a little bit to make them compete, but we see how great thats worked with ranking series events. 

[TBar1977 4,611]

19 hours ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

I don't see any scenario where Pantaleo doesn't blow straight through Sasso.  Would be happy to be proven wrong, though.  

Agree.

Pantaleo might go thru Sasso's defense like an 18 Wheeler vs. a Mule Deer coming off Rabbit Ears Pass.

[Lurker 2,049]

18 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Agree.

Pantaleo might go thru Sasso's defense like an 18 Wheeler vs. a Mule Deer coming off Rabbit Ears Pass.

That was deep

[TBar1977 4,611]

16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

That was deep

Like the driven snow on that high mountain pass. 

[juniorvarsity 22]

15 hours ago, Idaho said:

Did you see the question he was responding to? " Is it me, or has some of the prestige of a US Open title been lost?" He is correct in saying it has lost it's prestige. It's okay to say that and still know that USA wrestling is still in great shape.  Unless of course you are not old enough to remember brackets at the Open that make this year look junior high.

I agree that the US Open has lost prestige but not with the sentiment of the response. I think the Final X system is a better system than the previous system of only giving the US Open champion a bye to the WTT finals. 

I will give you this, the previous system typically had all of the best wrestlers at both the US Open and WTT(OK some people skipped the US Open). That is fun. But I think we have consistently put our best team at Worlds with the current system and I will not complain about the US Open being weak when our best wrestlers are always at WTT and the results at Worlds have been better since we did away with the old system. 

[juniorvarsity 22]

On 4/26/2022 at 2:06 PM, BAC said:

I'm sorry, but guys like Ramos and Tromble, fine wrestlers though they are, ought not be the top seed at USA Nationals at 57kg/92kg.  Look at the brackets from even 10 years ago and you'll see how far the quality of this has dropped.  Call me a whiner/complainer if you want, but I think its a legitimate topic to talk about how we can resurrect USAW's once-signature event.

I do not like this and it does highlight an issue. 

[nhs67 2,139]

Does anyone know the schedule, specifically the weigh-in schedule for the Open?

[spladle08 1,196]

Does anyone know the schedule, specifically the weigh-in schedule for the Open?

Scroll down to whichever schedule you're wanting. (Freestyle, Greco, Etc )
https://usawrestlingevents.com/event/2200002502/schedule

[nhs67 2,139]

16 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Scroll down to whichever schedule you're wanting. (Freestyle, Greco, Etc )
https://usawrestlingevents.com/event/2200002502/schedule

So they are weighing in twice.  For 70 KG quarterfinals will be ~4-5 hours after weight-ins and semi-finals will be ~11 hours after.  For the finals, it will be the following day and be wrestled ~10 hours after weigh-ins.

JO is making the finals and I am hesitant in picking Pantaleo over him.

[spladle08 1,196]

So they are weighing in twice.  For 70 KG quarterfinals will be ~4-5 hours after weight-ins and semi-finals will be ~11 hours after.  For the finals, it will be the following day and be wrestled ~10 hours after weigh-ins.
JO is making the finals and I am hesitant in picking Pantaleo over him.

Recovered JO is a monster.
Never relevant at 65kg again (seemingly) but a monster.
Love the pick. but also I think Pantelo just has good enough defense. Not his offensive pressure that's causing JO to wilt .
I can see several people in the bracket upsetting
PantswayLo but I can only see Pants beating JO.
And it's a true 50/50 in my eyes.
If it is happens I'll probably stick with Pants. But I'm assuming he gets upset

[rpm002 193]

Thought about weigh ins in relation to Gross.  If he was in the finals vs Nico I think he would win, but in the semis when he has to make 61 again the next day I'm not sure how big he can get.  Gross vs Graff in the final would be interesting.... They would both be *way* over 61 at the time the match is wrestled.

Edited April 28 by rpm002

[spladle08 1,196]

Thought about weigh ins in relation to Gross.  If he was in the finals vs Nico I think he would win, but in the semis when he has to make 61 again the next day I'm not sure how big he can get.  Gross vs Graff in the final would be interesting.... They would both be *way* over 61 at the time the match is wrestled.

I've never thought either as particularly big for 61kg.

[rpm002 193]

Gross just wrestled 65kg at Farrell and said he might stay there because he's grown so the cut is very hard for him.  

Graff was around 65kg when he wrestled Beka in the QFs at worlds.

[spladle08 1,196]

Gross just wrestled 65kg at Farrell and said he might stay there because he's grown so the cut is very hard for him.  
Graff was around 65kg when he wrestled Beka in the QFs at worlds.

Yeah I'd picture them both roughly 10lbs heavier come competition time. But clearly not big enough to be 65kg.
And Gross was down at 57kg not too long ago.

They both still have dreams/hopes at 61kg and are both too small for 65kg . But I do agree, cutting weight has to become a lot more taxing when it's apparent you're not going to make the team .

[rpm002 193]

35 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Yeah I'd picture them both roughly 10lbs heavier come competition time. But clearly not big enough to be 65kg.
And Gross was down at 57kg not too long ago.

They both still have dreams/hopes at 61kg and are both too small for 65kg . But I do agree, cutting weight has to become a lot more taxing when it's apparent you're not going to make the team .

So you are basically saying no one is going down to Stillwater and knock off Fix 2 out of 3?  I would agree Fix is a clear favorite but not sure I'd go so far to say it is apparent no one can beat him.  Let's at least see how these guys look at the Open and WTT.

[spladle08 1,196]

So you are basically saying no one is going down to Stillwater and knock off Fix 2 out of 3?  I would agree Fix is a clear favorite but not sure I'd go so far to say it is apparent no one can beat him.  Let's at least see how these guys look at the Open and WTT.

I don't think he's completely unbeatable. I think a Colon or Gross or somebody couple likely knock him off in a tournament setting with 1 funky match.
But best 2 of 3.... Injury feels like the only way.
And Gross still randomly struggles in freestyle matches against less stellar guys.
Graff is fairly consistent... Well usually . Somewhat .....
Again, little to no shot against Fix and still could lose to any of the top guys.

If Fix is injured. Sure Graff and Gross have an outside shot, a much better shot at being a finalist than they'd have at 57/65 but only people I see beating Fix would be like Nicky P. Or maybe Vito ...
Fix (or any of the top 4 guys at 57kg that bounce up during non Olympic years ) will be big helps to our world team title hopes
.

[BAC 249]

On 4/27/2022 at 3:05 PM, juniorvarsity said:

But I think we have consistently put our best team at Worlds with the current system and I will not complain about the US Open being weak when our best wrestlers are always at WTT and the results at Worlds have been better since we did away with the old system. 

Just curious, is there anyone who you think made a world/Olympic team under the old system who should NOT have made it, or wouldn't have made it if we hadn't made these changes?  I'm struggling.  Most of the "upset" winners at trials went on to medal (e.g. Cross over Brands, Kelly over McIravy, Slay over Williams, Snyder over Varner...).  Maybe Koll over Monday, but that was forever ago and a special situation.  I think the recent results at Worlds have more to do with the generational talents we happen to have right now, plus the success of the RTCs, than the fact that past medalists are getting byes to Final X.

That said, I'm not really complaining about prior medalists getting a spot in Final X.  I'm more troubled by the fact that so few of the rest of the top 5 are showing up at US Nationals.  A spot in the finals of the WTT challenge tournament for the winner is one way to bring them there.  Another way is to pare back on the number of automatic qualifiers by other means (e.g. top four of 2020 Olympic Trials *AND* top 4 of 2021 WTTs?!).  Or better prizes, or not the same weekend as U20 Nationals, etc.