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ugarte

Goodbye 9.9?

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22 hours ago, Pinnum said:

Before scholarship limits the top programs recruited players and have them scholarships just so that they wouldn’t have to face them as opponents.  
 

The high number of scholarships was specifically to ensure that players didn’t go to your opponents and didn’t get developed into quality players by getting game experience over the years.  
 

That hasn’t changed.  

Sure it has.  Athletes can transfer without consequence.

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Sure it has.  Athletes can transfer without consequence.

Per ESPN…

 

The NCAA analyzed data for all of the sports under its jurisdiction and found that only 30% (9,101) of Division I athletes who entered the [transfer] portal across all sports transferred and received athletic aid at their new school, and 47% (14,293) of all entrants remain active [in the portal without any new school providing an opportunity for them to compete].

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47 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

Per ESPN…

 

The NCAA analyzed data for all of the sports under its jurisdiction and found that only 30% (9,101) of Division I athletes who entered the [transfer] portal across all sports transferred and received athletic aid at their new school, and 47% (14,293) of all entrants remain active [in the portal without any new school providing an opportunity for them to compete].

Athletes who were highly recruited in HS (someone Iowa or Penn St doesn't want to compete against) don't receive attention on the portal?

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You can see the transfer portal data here: https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2022/4/25/transfer-portal-data-division-i-student-athlete-transfer-trends.aspx

For DI Wrestling

2020 - 152 entered the portal, 59 undergrads transferred, 10 grad transfers (6% of DI wrestlers entered the portal)
2021 - 207 entered the portal, 62 undergrads transferred, 18 grad transfers (8% of DI wrestlers entered the portal)

For both years, 76% transferred to D1, 22% to D2, 2% to D3

A little math shows that over that two year period, roughly 113 wrestlers transferred from one DI school to another. There were approximately 2,500 DI wrestlers in each of those seasons. This means that between 2% and 3% of DI wrestlers transferred to another DI school in the time period. I'm not sure all the hand wringing is justified.

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54 minutes ago, IronChef said:

You can see the transfer portal data here: https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2022/4/25/transfer-portal-data-division-i-student-athlete-transfer-trends.aspx

For DI Wrestling

2020 - 152 entered the portal, 59 undergrads transferred, 10 grad transfers (6% of DI wrestlers entered the portal)
2021 - 207 entered the portal, 62 undergrads transferred, 18 grad transfers (8% of DI wrestlers entered the portal)

For both years, 76% transferred to D1, 22% to D2, 2% to D3

A little math shows that over that two year period, roughly 113 wrestlers transferred from one DI school to another. There were approximately 2,500 DI wrestlers in each of those seasons. This means that between 2% and 3% of DI wrestlers transferred to another DI school in the time period. I'm not sure all the hand wringing is justified.

This is before the chance in scholarships that is being discussed.  
 

We are talking about what happens with a change to unlimited scholarships.  
 

The best proxy we have for it is football and basketball which are headcount sports and have a lot more scholarships available.   
 

We already see it playing out there. 

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On 4/28/2022 at 9:25 AM, Pinnum said:

Soccer has 11 on the field at a time and gets 9.9.  
 

Volleyball has 7 starters (with Libero) and they get 4.5.  
 

Wrestling’s limit of 9.9 for 10 starters is reasonable.  

Reasonable compared to what. You have 30 wrestlers in the practice room. Basketball gets 15 scholarships for 5 starters. Why? Football gets 75 scholarships for 30 starters. Why???I would say 17  would be reasonable and 20 would be great.

 

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1 hour ago, Paul158 said:

Reasonable compared to what. You have 30 wrestlers in the practice room. Basketball gets 15 scholarships for 5 starters. Why? Football gets 75 scholarships for 30 starters. Why???I would say 17  would be reasonable and 20 would be great.

 

Compared to… well, the sports I compared it to…

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Scholarship limits only matter to the handful of programs that would actually give more if they were allowed, ie the cream of the crop. RTC’s made those limits, shall we say, less limiting. Now NLI money has rendered them practically irrelevant. I’m hearing that boosters are now being told to donate directly to NLI funds rather than RTC’s or schools because of the increased flexibility of that money and the corresponding lack of oversight strings attached. 

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It's going to be tricky to square football and basketball rules with the rest of the sports in the NCAA. whats going to be even more difficult is building consensus across the D1 spectrum as the NCAA are abdicating their role as rule maker and enforcer. that job will now fall on the universities and conferences. unfortunately ensuring parity at the D1 level for wrestling is going to be pretty far down the list of priorities for the decision makers. 

the best thing for wrestling imo is if the NCAA or at least some conferences agree to raise the minimum number of sports each school must field. many schools will want to keep the limit low or even lower it and do the bare minimum to stay D1 eligible for football or basketball but if the big money schools with the powerful brands say you need to sponsor more sports to play in the same league and stick to that rule I think the smaller schools with lower profile brands will comply. 

or maybe thats just wishful thinking on my part. either way, i think its safe to predict that big changes of some sort on coming for college athletics. 

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Over the last 150 years or so college sports has gone from something that was meant to be part of the education of a well-rounded gentleman and generate esprit de corps among the student body to something that is primarily concerned with revenue generation. Not to say that there weren't always financial incentives but the current environment is that there are a couple of sports that are essentially professional - 10-figure budgets and 9-figure coaches - and the financial tail that wags the university dog. Non-revenue sports survive in that environment requires either an ability to draw alumni support or a university's sense of history to stay alive. 

If you're a fan of a non-revenue sport (like wrestling is in most of the schools that still sponsor it) it's a pretty precarious feeling.

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9 hours ago, tigerfan said:

Scholarship limits only matter to the handful of programs that would actually give more if they were allowed, ie the cream of the crop. RTC’s made those limits, shall we say, less limiting. Now NLI money has rendered them practically irrelevant. I’m hearing that boosters are now being told to donate directly to NLI funds rather than RTC’s or schools because of the increased flexibility of that money and the corresponding lack of oversight strings attached. 

As has been pointed out many times before the stretching (cheating) the 9.9 occurred before RTCs, offer a kid a full ride get him to commit then go back and reduce or take it away but tell the kid ;) ;) we'll make up the $s once on campus.  Course the folk(s) doing such didn't take to kindly to the new plan of using a RTC.  Such folk had to decide, do we complain about better stretching/cheating or get our own RTC.  Now with NIL its just a wide open shell game.  We might as well go unlimited scholarships in numbers and value combined with extra $s, RTC and NIL.  Let the highest bidder win,  9.9 is meaningless.  :(

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37 minutes ago, ionel said:

As has been pointed out many times before the stretching (cheating) the 9.9 occurred before RTCs, offer a kid a full ride get him to commit then go back and reduce or take it away but tell the kid ;) ;) we'll make up the $s once on campus.  Course the folk(s) doing such didn't take to kindly to the new plan of using a RTC.  Such folk had to decide, do we complain about better stretching/cheating or get our own RTC.  Now with NIL its just a wide open shell game.  We might as well go unlimited scholarships in numbers and value combined with extra $s, RTC and NIL.  Let the highest bidder win,  9.9 is meaningless.  :(

That’s a beautiful deflection, because it’s not untrue, but it glosses over the FACT that PSU used its unprecedented RTC windfall, shall we say creatively? The only reason no one outed them is because they all wanted to do it too. However, PSU’s ridiculous advantage in funds led to a decade of ridiculous recruiting advantage that however much the other programs followed their lead, they were never able to close the gap that was created. Cael coached ‘em up, got them to perform at he highest level when it mattered, and the train rolled on. I agree that at this point the gloves are off and the highest bidder will get the best wrestlers, not just recruits, but proven AA’s and even champs. It will be the death of NCAA wrestling as we know it. Mark my words. 

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1 hour ago, tigerfan said:

That’s a beautiful deflection, because it’s not untrue, but it glosses over the FACT that PSU used its unprecedented RTC windfall, shall we say creatively? The only reason no one outed them is because they all wanted to do it too. However, PSU’s ridiculous advantage in funds led to a decade of ridiculous recruiting advantage that however much the other programs followed their lead, they were never able to close the gap that was created. Cael coached ‘em up, got them to perform at he highest level when it mattered, and the train rolled on. I agree that at this point the gloves are off and the highest bidder will get the best wrestlers, not just recruits, but proven AA’s and even champs. It will be the death of NCAA wrestling as we know it. Mark my words. 

If you're going to beat the cheater you have to cheat bigger.  Carl had a plan and went bigger.  Problem was, all the others could do is match it but now with NIL maybe there is a new bigger, I mean MI got a b10 title so ...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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On 5/1/2022 at 5:26 PM, ugarte said:

Over the last 150 years or so college sports has gone from something that was meant to be part of the education of a well-rounded gentleman and generate esprit de corps among the student body to something that is primarily concerned with revenue generation. Not to say that there weren't always financial incentives but the current environment is that there are a couple of sports that are essentially professional - 10-figure budgets and 9-figure coaches - and the financial tail that wags the university dog. Non-revenue sports survive in that environment requires either an ability to draw alumni support or a university's sense of history to stay alive. 

If you're a fan of a non-revenue sport (like wrestling is in most of the schools that still sponsor it) it's a pretty precarious feeling.

There is no NCAA wrestling program that at the minimum breaks even.  Sure programs like Iowa and PSU generate revenue but still operate at a loss and need football money.

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athletes always have been able to transfer.

they just might have to sit a year, in the past.

yes, in the past some athletes were stockpiled... alabama routinely offered more schollies than available... they OVER recruited... not sure how that all worked out for them, i think they were able to lie b/c guys wanted to play for them... and so could go w/o a schollie for a year... etc

not sure such a stockpile exercise still exists today with the portal etc... 

but guys may just be willing to wait their turn like the alabama running back last season.. his name escapes me...

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On 4/28/2022 at 11:09 AM, Pinnum said:

Before scholarship limits the top programs recruited players and have them scholarships just so that they wouldn’t have to face them as opponents.  
 

The high number of scholarships was specifically to ensure that players didn’t go to your opponents and didn’t get developed into quality players by getting game experience over the years.  
 

That hasn’t changed.  

If that is the reason. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But if it is, that's a crappy thing to do to a kid. Purposefully squandering the talent and the few years an athlete has, to help your team. Just be better. That's it. 

Also, when the rules for scholarships + NIL, change. And they will. They might move to a need-based system like the Ivies. And they should. Those with no NIL getting more scholarship dollars The ones that are going to make out like bandits... the accountants. Those paid to hide the NIL money so the kids still 'qualify' for the maximum amount of 'scholarship' 

Its going to get worse before it gets better. But it will get better. Wish I could've gotten paid when I was in college. Glad kids have that now. Everyone out there that says, 'We didn't need all this NIL stuff in my day and we turned out fine' That's a fair point, but college didn't cost nearly as much just 40 years ago. But wouldn't it have been nice to have a bit of next egg built up before going out on your own? Hell ya! Bring it on

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Football teams are not offering scholarships to players they don't view highly just to keep them away from other teams. I'm sure it happened in the past, but it's not happening now. In addition to the limit on total scholarships, an FBS team can only sign a maximum of 25 players per year. They don't waste those on guys they don't want. 

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51 minutes ago, IronChef said:

Football teams are not offering scholarships to players they don't view highly just to keep them away from other teams. I'm sure it happened in the past, but it's not happening now. In addition to the limit on total scholarships, an FBS team can only sign a maximum of 25 players per year. They don't waste those on guys they don't want. 

It was occurring in wrestling. Doubt it happened in football as too many teams and too many different options to win a national title.  Did any football teams back then ever win 5 in a row, 3 in a row ... ? 

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On 4/30/2022 at 2:18 PM, Paul158 said:

Reasonable compared to what. You have 30 wrestlers in the practice room. Basketball gets 15 scholarships for 5 starters. Why? Football gets 75 scholarships for 30 starters. Why???I would say 17  would be reasonable and 20 would be great.

 

You do know that could kill D1 wrestling.

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17 hours ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

If that is the reason. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But if it is, that's a crappy thing to do to a kid. Purposefully squandering the talent and the few years an athlete has, to help your team. Just be better. That's it. 

 

Its going to get worse before it gets better. 

they may be squandering the talent. but 

what if the kid wants to go there? what if he wants to learn from that coach? maybe  he likes the academics

again, take the alabama kid last season who waited his turn. he knew what was best for him

and they could transfer anytime they wanted 

i agree it is going to get worse... what scares me is making it better might be changing the whole shebang

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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

they may be squandering the talent. but 

what if the kid wants to go there? what if he wants to learn from that coach? maybe  he likes the academics

again, take the alabama kid last season who waited his turn. he knew what was best for him

and they could transfer anytime they wanted 

i agree it is going to get worse... what scares me is making it better might be changing the whole shebang

Why is that scary? It might need to, and some would argue must, change.

It seems as if the purpose/nature of amateur athletics has changed. There seems to be a lot of momentum in favor of moving forward. These moves will have unintended negative consequences for some and surprising benefits for others. We must keep our minds open to helping those who need/deserve a leg up and shout loudly when we see someone taking advantage of the situation. Because nature abhors a vacuum, there will be those that try to grift given the opportunity. Be wary of those who fight against transparency. The more information we have about the processes and decisions being made, moving forward, the better educated we can be and the less scary it will be. 

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1 hour ago, Boompa said:

You do know that could kill D1 wrestling.

That kind of rhetoric is tricky. Killing D1 wrestling in its current form could be good. Killing 9.9 in favor of 15, who wouldn't want that? 

I think I understand your concern, in that, it might not be feasible for some schools to add scholarships. So, cutting sports would be a better financial move. But opening up funding opportunities so that programs/schools aren't on the hook for all the scholly money, could open up recruiting to smaller schools. 

The limited number of weight classes will help to curb over recruiting from larger/richer schools, I think. Kids want to be on good teams but the also don't want to ride the bench behind 3-4 guys. So, it could increase parity among the haves and have-nots, a bit. 

Its current form is not ideal. I'm in favor of D1 wrestling dying, if it leads to something better down the road. Granted, that is not guaranteed but could be worth a try or at least considering the options. Changing the D1 system could benefit D2 or 3 or NJCAA or NAIA. Who knows? 

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17 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

Why is that scary? It might need to, and some would argue must, change.

It seems as if the purpose/nature of amateur athletics has changed. There seems to be a lot of momentum in favor of moving forward. These moves will have unintended negative consequences for some and surprising benefits for others. We must keep our minds open to helping those who need/deserve a leg up and shout loudly when we see someone taking advantage of the situation. Because nature abhors a vacuum, there will be those that try to grift given the opportunity. Be wary of those who fight against transparency. The more information we have about the processes and decisions being made, moving forward, the better educated we can be and the less scary it will be. 

i dont disagree

but there is never transparency, never will be

i just see something i have loved my entire life falling apart

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13 minutes ago, TwoPointTakeDown said:

That kind of rhetoric is tricky. Killing D1 wrestling in its current form could be good. Killing 9.9 in favor of 15, who wouldn't want that? 

I think I understand your concern, in that, it might not be feasible for some schools to add scholarships. So, cutting sports would be a better financial move. But opening up funding opportunities so that programs/schools aren't on the hook for all the scholly money, could open up recruiting to smaller schools. 

The limited number of weight classes will help to curb over recruiting from larger/richer schools, I think. Kids want to be on good teams but the also don't want to ride the bench behind 3-4 guys. So, it could increase parity among the haves and have-nots, a bit. 

Its current form is not ideal. I'm in favor of D1 wrestling dying, if it leads to something better down the road. Granted, that is not guaranteed but could be worth a try or at least considering the options. Changing the D1 system could benefit D2 or 3 or NJCAA or NAIA. Who knows? 

i dont see how a super league is better than what we have, hell, killing it may kill it. just look at the olympics dropping wrestling a few years ago

again, some kids dont mind riding pine, if they are learning from the best 

the move from 105 to 85 schollies in football grew the sport, the little guys could compete a little more

i think going from 9.9 to 15 would do the opposite 

Edited by GockeS

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2 hours ago, GockeS said:

i dont see how a super league is better than what we have, hell, killing it may kill it. just look at the olympics dropping wrestling a few years ago

again, some kids dont mind riding pine, if they are learning from the best 

the move from 105 to 85 schollies in football grew the sport, the little guys could compete a little more

i think going from 9.9 to 15 would do the opposite 

That's a fair opinion. Holding on to something you know and love is natural. I hear ya. 

We can both agree that the sport is not going anywhere. Regardless of having options at the collegiate level and they heard the branch creak once at the Olympic level. I don't see that happening again. Middle school, junior and high school wrestling will always be around and clubs. There will be tournaments. I'm pretty confident in that. If we can hold our nose and push forward, it could be great for the sport. If not, we rally and try again. All the while the curmudgeons yell about soccer balls being kicked in their yard as they always have/will. Hoping that we can hold on to what we have while watching other sports take risks in order to grow is letting the water boil around you. 

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