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IronChef

New caution rule is bad

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Fleeing the mat is now two points because of the step out plus the caution. This is a bad change, to me. A judgment call on whether it's fleeing or not is now worth the same as a takedown. I hope some clarification of the rule is forthcoming that limits the number of two point step outs.

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10 hours ago, IronChef said:

 

Fleeing the mat is now two points because of the step out plus the caution. This is a bad change, to me. A judgment call on whether it's fleeing or not is now worth the same as a takedown. I hope some clarification of the rule is forthcoming that limits the number of two point step outs.

 

There is an important distinction that it’s 1 + 1 and not 2 so it’s not worth the same as a takedown if it goes to criteria.

 

but I still think the rule change is a bad one.

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I sat in on the rules clinic at Europeans and saw how Antonio Silvestri and Ibrahim Cicioglu were explaining/demonstrating the rule to the officials in Budapest. The key to look at the distinction for fleeing is if they are back to the center or lunging away from the center out of the zone into the protection area. Let me make that a little more clear: If you're darting out of bounds, in that direction, you're going to get hit for fleeing. The point is to stay and fight. You SHOULDN'T be hit for fleeing if you go out of bounds under attack. Just the stepout or the takedown completion.

I don't hate the rule and I actually didn't see it much in Budapest. I haven't watched much of the open, but I don't see this rule change as something that's drastic or damaging. Trying to keep the athletes in the competition area vs. getting in trouble and bailing and giving up one instead of two. The penalty here is for running away vs. using the 1 vs. 2. 

I'm indifferent on its impact. The issue, like all rules, will be how it's called/interpreted by the official on the mat. I don't think it's as much of a judgement call as it is getting reps to call it the way it's intended to be called. 

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i agree with JB
however, i saw one time, a guy was circling quickly to stay in didn't and was still hit with the extra point

… that’d be on the ref, although did they run there and then try to circle in to avoid the flee? Probably not. lol

That is one thing about rule modifications internationally, there is no off-season like we have with college/HS rule changes. They get tweaked and it seems the next day, there’s a tournament. Probably why there’s a perception the rules change too often internationally - they don’t have as many per year as the NFHS does, yet there’s a shorter learning curve before they’re put into place.

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On 5/1/2022 at 6:23 AM, JasonBryant said:


… that’d be on the ref, although did they run there and then try to circle in to avoid the flee? Probably not. lol

That is one thing about rule modifications internationally, there is no off-season like we have with college/HS rule changes. They get tweaked and it seems the next day, there’s a tournament. Probably why there’s a perception the rules change too often internationally - they don’t have as many per year as the NFHS does, yet there’s a shorter learning curve before they’re put into place.

Good point on the no-offseason part. A huge part of the game is adjusting to the ever evolving rules. Makes me really appreciate the talent of the athletes who have been successful for a long span - how many different rule variants have they had to learn to adjust to, while still finding a way to win? Pretty awesome.

 

There is always the argument for less rules being better, but generally this argument is done from the position of wanting to make wrestling accessible to more people. I don't think wrestling will ever be "mainstream" and because of that, I don't care about simplifying rules so the non wrestlers can understand whats happening. 

 

These new rules take time to hammer out the kinks. Pushout points were rewarded a decade ago. Now they are penalized.

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to me, adding the caution to someone stepping out and a point to the other guy is a mistake,

is this another step toward sumo?

i mean, since when has wrestling other than sumo been about pushing a guy out of bounds... since the pushout came into existence... it has changed wrestling

im still not certain it has added to the number of takedowns etc...

i also hear that you aren't supposed to be able to JUST push someone out of bounds , why are we rewarding the guy who is just pushing someone out... or crowding them by circling

even just walking them out of bounds with a leg up... that isn't wrestling.. you just pushed them out of bounds...(it's almost as if we are giving a point for the correct hold... yes you attempted a shot..good boy, here is a point.)

i get if you run from a takedown. fleeing the mat. that should be a point.

but if the guy has my ankle and i have to yank it, go out of bounds and then face him, why am i penalized... he is just stalling hanging on my ankle... 

 

making it two points is a mistake.

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2 hours ago, GockeS said:

to me, adding the caution to someone stepping out and a point to the other guy is a mistake,

is this another step toward sumo?

i mean, since when has wrestling other than sumo been about pushing a guy out of bounds... since the pushout came into existence... it has changed wrestling

im still not certain it has added to the number of takedowns etc...

i also hear that you aren't supposed to be able to JUST push someone out of bounds , why are we rewarding the guy who is just pushing someone out... or crowding them by circling

even just walking them out of bounds with a leg up... that isn't wrestling.. you just pushed them out of bounds...(it's almost as if we are giving a point for the correct hold... yes you attempted a shot..good boy, here is a point.)

i get if you run from a takedown. fleeing the mat. that should be a point.

but if the guy has my ankle and i have to yank it, go out of bounds and then face him, why am i penalized... he is just stalling hanging on my ankle... 

 

making it two points is a mistake.

The ability to punish people for pushing directly correlates to how technical they are…. You want less “sumo”. Either learn to hold position. Or get technical enough you can punish them for it.  
 

Again, keep your ass in bounds.

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19 hours ago, jp157 said:

The ability to punish people for pushing directly correlates to how technical they are…. You want less “sumo”. Either learn to hold position. Or get technical enough you can punish them for it.  
 

Again, keep your ass in bounds.

What point are you arguing against? I think that a penalty for fleeing the mat should exist; I just think the new rule has made the penalty too harsh. Your solution of "get good" doesn't satisfy me, since I'm over 40 years old, retired from wrestling, and thus not subjected to the current rules. 

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12 minutes ago, IronChef said:

What point are you arguing against? I think that a penalty for fleeing the mat should exist; I just think the new rule has made the penalty too harsh. Your solution of "get good" doesn't satisfy me, since I'm over 40 years old, retired from wrestling, and thus not subjected to the current rules. 

'get good'

i agree, the pushout has fundamentally changed freestyle wrestling

you have to 'get good' at something that's not been a wrestling skill but for the last 10 years 

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3 hours ago, IronChef said:

What point are you arguing against? I think that a penalty for fleeing the mat should exist; I just think the new rule has made the penalty too harsh. Your solution of "get good" doesn't satisfy me, since I'm over 40 years old, retired from wrestling, and thus not subjected to the current rules. 

People are whining. I don’t mind the rule whatsoever. 
 

And, the “omg it’s pushing!!! People actually especially irritate me. If the goal is technical wrestling. The push out helps create that. Keep your ass in bounds or get technical enough to punish them for pushing.

Sometimes the answer is.. get good. 

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10 hours ago, GockeS said:

right i get that ... but its still a point for the guy that PUSHED me out... 

The same answer as “how do I keep a guy from getting a takedown if he has my arm and head and leg and just about to lock” 

Answer: don’t get there, or get some technique to fight it off before he/she scores.  
 

Yeah a guy/gal could push you out when they have your ankle on their shoulder and it looks like a takedown isn’t going to happen. They had to wrestle their way to that position. They beat you to that position, where pretty much your only saving grace (if you can’t wrestle your way out of it) is the boundary line. No one scores by just simply pushing them out from center to boundary (and you know that) 
 

As jp said….keep your ass in bounds.  

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So what's the limit? What number of points is too much for the "just stay in bounds" crowd? Why not give three points for fleeing? What about four? Maybe fleeing should result in disqualification. After all: just stay in bounds.

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14 minutes ago, IronChef said:

So what's the limit? What number of points is too much for the "just stay in bounds" crowd? Why not give three points for fleeing? What about four? Maybe fleeing should result in disqualification. After all: just stay in bounds.

I don’t believe anyone is saying it should gain an insurmountable advantage. I think people saying one point for a step it has appropriate value. One point for a flee has appropriate value. If you do both, both are scored. 
 

Should basketball eliminate the one free throw on a bucket and foul?  I mean he scored the bucket anyway, why penalize the other player for the violation??

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11 hours ago, Lurker said:

The same answer as “how do I keep a guy from getting a takedown if he has my arm and head and leg and just about to lock” 

Answer: don’t get there, or get some technique to fight it off before he/she scores.  
 

Yeah a guy/gal could push you out when they have your ankle on their shoulder and it looks like a takedown isn’t going to happen. They had to wrestle their way to that position. They beat you to that position, where pretty much your only saving grace (if you can’t wrestle your way out of it) is the boundary line. No one scores by just simply pushing them out from center to boundary (and you know that) 
 

As jp said….keep your ass in bounds.  

wait

if the guy is so good and outwrestled me to the position.. why can't he just take my ass down? 

give me a break

 

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16 hours ago, jp157 said:

People are whining. I don’t mind the rule whatsoever. 
 

And, the “omg it’s pushing!!! People actually especially irritate me. If the goal is technical wrestling. The push out helps create that. Keep your ass in bounds or get technical enough to punish them for pushing.

Sometimes the answer is.. get good. 

no, the pushout has NOT created technical wrestling... unless you consider walking someone out of bounds a technical aspect of wrestling.

when before the pushout... did anyone...ANYONE, walk someone out of bounds with a leg up(not to mention the great new stall of dropping to your knees on the edge)

i think the pushout is ok. i get it.

but now to give a ref one more subjective way to punish a wrestler ... come on. 

Edited by GockeS

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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

no, the pushout has NOT created technical wrestling... unless you consider walking someone out of bounds a technical aspect of wrestling.

when before the pushout... did anyone...ANYONE, walk someone out of bounds with a leg up(not to mention the great new stall of dropping to your knees on the edge)

i think the pushout is ok. i get it.

but now to give a ref one more subjective way to punish a wrestler ... come on. 

To punish somebody for pushing. You either have to develop a

1- super technical snap

2- Slide-bye - which includes the overbook slide bye the Russians and Azeris have been using to punish the Iranian underhook push

3- throws

4- ducks

5- footwork 

All of which requires much more technical acumen, feel and skill.. than just getting your hands locked on a leg or pulling on a head

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3 hours ago, GockeS said:

wait

if the guy is so good and outwrestled me to the position.. why can't he just take my ass down? 

give me a break

 

That’s your argument to staying in bounds. And you want me to give you a break. 
bwaahhaahaaha

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3 hours ago, jp157 said:

To punish somebody for pushing. You either have to develop a

1- super technical snap

2- Slide-bye - which includes the overbook slide bye the Russians and Azeris have been using to punish the Iranian underhook push

3- throws

4- ducks

5- footwork 

All of which requires much more technical acumen, feel and skill.. than just getting your hands locked on a leg or pulling on a head

were any of these around before the pushout?

yes

the pushout hasn't added skills to wrestling

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