Folk vs free

[Jim L 328]

14 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Freestyle is much better, but completely eliminating folkstyle immediately will be tough. I think it’s worth adding a couple small rule changes:

1. Push out 1 point 

2. Allow moves that start in bounds to be finished out of bounds and still score points.

3. Feet to back scores 3 or 5 for high amplitude throw (5 only for NCAA level). 
 

4. After 60 seconds of riding, wrestlers are brought back to their feet. Call stalling faster in these situation.

5. 1 second Nearfall is 1 point. 
 

6. 10 point techfall 

60 seconds of riding is an eternity if you don't like watching mat wrestling without turns.

also, there is usually not enough room out of bounds to let any continuation of the action occur once they go out of bounds

[jackwebster 330]

2 hours ago, Jim L said:

also, there is usually not enough room out of bounds to let any continuation of the action occur once they go out of bounds

Agree. Here's a new rule: increase the out of bounds area by 10 feet so that nobody ever touches the hardwood.

Edited May 2 by jackwebster

[GockeS 549]

im here for that

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

6 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Agree. Here's a new rule: increase the out of bounds area by 10 feet so that nobody ever touches the hardwood.

Yep, or slightly decrease the inner area while increasing the outer mat. Edge wrestling is awful, and the pushout combined with the continuation zone leads to great action at the edge of the mat.

[GockeS 549]

i love edge wrestling.

I like the idea of the pushout... but i think it has actually changed wrestling after college. (not to mention the added drop to the knees stalling aspect)

i love the edge, b/c you still have to finish...

[kgschalhoub 58]

I like the fact we in the US have both. I enjoy the folk season and the free season.

[ironmonkey 157]

I don't hate freestyle but I definitely prefer folk.  I don't think much needs to change. The sport is exciting as it is.  I wouldn't mind a pushout rule  in overtime though.  Less rideouts is a win for everyone. 

 

 

[jchapman 1,340]

I can't stand tilts in folkstyle.  That is all.

[1032004 1,514]

On 4/30/2022 at 7:03 PM, Eagle26 said:

That’s not a fair comparison because NCAAs are the highest peak in folkstyle wrestling. The world championships or at least WTT are a better comparison. But still you are right folkstyle is way more popular here. I just a cultural thing… we like what we are comfortable and familiar with. The vast majority of people that know and understand both free and folk prefer free.

Who said anything about NCAA’s?  A Wisconsin vs Nebraska dual gets more posts on here than the US Open.

I will admit that NCAA wrestling interest is likely more due to college allegiances, but I don’t think making it freestyle would increase the viewership in the US (even if everyone was familiar with freestyle rules). But the same is probably true for the Olympics - I doubt it gets more US viewers if it was folkstyle - maybe just some more people that actually understand the scoring.

They’re really not all that different IMO.

[Eagle26 606]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Who said anything about NCAA’s?  A Wisconsin vs Nebraska dual gets more posts on here than the US Open.

I will admit that NCAA wrestling interest is likely more due to college allegiances, but I don’t think making it freestyle would increase the viewership in the US (even if everyone was familiar with freestyle rules). But the same is probably true for the Olympics - I doubt it gets more US viewers if it was folkstyle - maybe just some more people that actually understand the scoring.

They’re really not all that different IMO.

The OP.

I agree it’s not really that different, but I think the slight differences make freestyle a better product to watch. That said, if you don’t understand the sport well, you are not going to like watching it. That’s why wrestling of all styles is not popular here.

[ionel 2,731]

5 hours ago, kgschalhoub said:

I like the fact we in the US have both. I enjoy the folk season and the free season.

When is the "free season?"  I'd rather pay monthly but Flo charges me for the entire year.  :(

[Casper 108]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:34 PM, JasonBryant said:

 

It’s nothing like those sports - nothing at all.

Jason, go back and read what I wrote. Subjective scoring is too open to manipulation.

[1032004 1,514]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

The OP.

I agree it’s not really that different, but I think the slight differences make freestyle a better product to watch. That said, if you don’t understand the sport well, you are not going to like watching it. That’s why wrestling of all styles is not popular here.

Lol whoops, missed that.

But my point still stands about the US open being less talked about than a regular season dual between good but not great teams.

[GockeS 549]

14 hours ago, jchapman said:

I can't stand tilts in folkstyle.  That is all.

wait wait wait

i can just roll you over your back and score two in free... but can't tilt and hold you for points... 

i mean im not a great fan of tilts... and yes maybe they shouldn't be four... but to say free is good and tilts are bad... come on

[GockeS 549]

13 hours ago, Casper said:

Jason, go back and read what I wrote. Subjective scoring is too open to manipulation.

i agree to an extent

sometimes you just wonder... how are they going to score that... its so subjective...

and you always get the... it was our move... 

think back to the big brouhaha we had a few years ago with yanni and zain maybe? 

[GockeS 549]

12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Lol whoops, missed that.

But my point still stands about the US open being less talked about than a regular season dual between good but not great teams.

now add in the rtc... still college based... the interest really isn't there... maybe it will be... 

but the teams are so small yet... 

[JasonBryant 2,119]

Jason, go back and read what I wrote. Subjective scoring is too open to manipulation.

I read what you wrote and I disagree with what you said there.

[steen-hooph 74]

I see a lot of people pointing to riding time as a problem with folk on the college level. Something I posted on another thread was a rule change that would only allow a wrestler to accumulate riding time if they had already secured a two point score of some kind (takedown, reversal, near fall). It would incentivize scoring in the opening period and take away the incentive to simply build riding time in a 0-0 or 1-0 match. You could also add a wrinkle that a stalling call on top would stop your riding time clock until another 2 point score is earned if you like. That would be a deterrent to hanging out below the waist and taking the "free" stall call when the top wrestler gets in trouble. Downside is you better have a competent riding time clock operator.  

[Plasmodium 2,307]

12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Lol whoops, missed that.

But my point still stands about the US open being less talked about than a regular season dual between good but not great teams.

To be fair, how many active world team members were there?  What was on the line?  None and not much. 

I can see Pantaleo winning WTT.  Most of the other US national FS champions are barely in the running, if that.  USAW needs to find a way to make it consequential.

[1032004 1,514]

31 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

To be fair, how many active world team members were there?  What was on the line?  None and not much. 

How many NCAA champions were there though? Just in senior freestyle:

Megaludis

Gross

Maple

Heil

Oliver

Nolf

Cenzo

Dieringer

Hall

Mach

(plus guys like Kolodzik, Pletcher and Sasso who had a good chance in 2020)

Not sure if I missed any.  But there's not usually that many NCAA champs in one building outside of NCAA's, and usually not even that if we're talking having already accomplished it.

[jchapman 1,340]

1 hour ago, GockeS said:

wait wait wait

i can just roll you over your back and score two in free... but can't tilt and hold you for points... 

i mean im not a great fan of tilts... and yes maybe they shouldn't be four... but to say free is good and tilts are bad... come on

I'm not saying free is good, just that I can't stand tilts in folkstyle.  Tilts are not a pinning combination, and therefore shouldn't lead to nearfall points.  And yes, every now and then someone gets pinned in a tilt, but 99+% of the time tilts do not lead to a fall.

[IronChef 1,134]

The relative popularity of NCAA vs Senior wrestling is almost entirely due to the team aspect of college sports and the regular schedule of competitions throughout the season. The style of wrestling has little to do with it. I would not expect much of a change in popularity of NCAA wrestling up or down if it switched to freestyle. People may have a preference, but Iowa wrestling fans are fans of Iowa. They don't care what style the guys are wrestling as long as the singlet is black and a Brands brother is shouting in the corner.

[steamboat_charlie v2 1,175]

19 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I'm not saying free is good, just that I can't stand tilts in folkstyle.  Tilts are not a pinning combination, and therefore shouldn't lead to nearfall points.  And yes, every now and then someone gets pinned in a tilt, but 99+% of the time tilts do not lead to a fall.

If the game was only about pinning, then why do we even keep score?  

[1032004 1,514]

13 minutes ago, IronChef said:

The relative popularity of NCAA vs Senior wrestling is almost entirely due to the team aspect of college sports and the regular schedule of competitions throughout the season. The style of wrestling has little to do with it. I would not expect much of a change in popularity of NCAA wrestling up or down if it switched to freestyle. People may have a preference, but Iowa wrestling fans are fans of Iowa. They don't care what style the guys are wrestling as long as the singlet is black and a Brands brother is shouting in the corner.

But all of the senior guys came through the college ranks.  Why do PSU fans not have nearly as much interest in Nolf now even though he's still a PSU alum and NLWC wrestler?

[TBar1977 4,601]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

But all of the senior guys came through the college ranks.  Why do PSU fans not have nearly as much interest in Nolf now even though he's still a PSU alum and NLWC wrestler?

PSU fans have lots of interest in Nolf, there are just fewer competitions and some of  those are against unfamiliar International wrestlers. It might not be an identical level of interest, but it isn't like they don't care to see him wrestle freestyle.