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37 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I'm not saying free is good, just that I can't stand tilts in folkstyle.  Tilts are not a pinning combination, and therefore shouldn't lead to nearfall points.  And yes, every now and then someone gets pinned in a tilt, but 99+% of the time tilts do not lead to a fall.

i can agree with that

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14 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

But all of the senior guys came through the college ranks.  Why do PSU fans not have nearly as much interest in Nolf now even though he's still a PSU alum and NLWC wrestler?

Because he's a former Penn State wrestler. All those season ticket holders that sell out Rec Hall are there to see the Nittany Lions first and foremost. They'll cheer for Nolf when he wrestles of course, but they are fans of his because he went to Penn State. They aren't Penn State fans because Jason Nolf went there. 

Plus, it's a lot easier to watch and follow Penn State wrestling than it is to follow Jason Nolf's career. Penn State has duals every Friday and Sunday for the whole wrestling season and you can go to the matches or watch them on TV. To watch Jason Nolf you have to have a Flo account, keep track of the limited number of times he wrestles each year, and then maybe wake up at 3am to watch a tournament on the other side of the world.

Use Burroughs as another example. In 2018 and 2019 combined, he wrestled 8 total non-exhibition matches  in the United States, and it would have been less if we didn't host the World Cup. 3 at the World Cup, 2 and Final X 2018, and 3 at Final X 2019. No wonder college wrestling is more popular. The stars wrestle more and in front of their fans.

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23 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

If the game was only about pinning, then why do we even keep score?  

I am not saying the game is only about pinning, I am saying scoring near fall points, by rule, has to involve a pinning situation.  I am arguing that a tilt is not a pinning situation.

Section 5. Near Fall Art. 1. Near Fall Criteria. A near fall is a position in which the offensive wrestler has the opponent in a controlled pinning situation in which any one of the following three criteria are met: a. The defensive wrestler is held in a high bridge or on both elbows; b. Any part of one shoulder or scapula, or the head is touching the mat and the other shoulder or scapula is held at an angle of 45 degrees or less to the mat; or c. Any part of both shoulders or both scapulae are held within four inches of the mat. In any pinning situation, a near fall may occur if any part of either wrestler remains in bounds.

Edited by jchapman

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24 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Darian would like a word...

Darian_Cruz_0172.jpg

 

1 hour ago, jchapman said:

I'm not saying free is good, just that I can't stand tilts in folkstyle.  Tilts are not a pinning combination, and therefore shouldn't lead to nearfall points.  And yes, every now and then someone gets pinned in a tilt, but 99+% of the time tilts do not lead to a fall.

I tried to preempt  a post like this in a previous post of mine.

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I personally enjoy both styles for different reasons but dislike aspects in each as well.  My freestyle gripes are 1)criteria decisions, 2)takedown to leg lace roll around on the mat for a few second technical superiorities, 3)push-outs/shot clock as the only points to win a match.  Folkstyle gripes would be 1)top stalling (all sorts of ways), 2)edge wrestling/fleeing, 3)Merkle takedowns.  

I definitely enjoy the pace of freestyle more but am a fan of top wrestling in folkstyle as it gives more opportunity for pinning maneuvers when you have athletes that work for it.  I also feel like the scoring in folkstyle is a little easier or less muddled to understand, especially during scramble situations.  Some freestyle matches have very confusing scoring situations due to exposures during scrambles that leave you scratching your head.  Some fixes to both would be nice, but I like them pretty equally.

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5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

How many NCAA champions were there though? Just in senior freestyle:

Megaludis

Gross

Maple

Heil

Oliver

Nolf

Cenzo

Dieringer

Hall

Mach

(plus guys like Kolodzik, Pletcher and Sasso who had a good chance in 2020)


Not sure if I missed any.  But there's not usually that many NCAA champs in one building outside of NCAA's, and usually not even that if we're talking having already accomplished it.

IMar was also there.

Their folk careers are long over, so they don't provide big drawing power in FS.  There would be considerably more interest in the tournament if  there top tier wrestlers competing, but that would work against them.

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On 5/1/2022 at 2:26 PM, TheHeel said:

The chances of 3 people blowing a call is lower than the chances of 1 person. Its more fair for the athletes. How many times have we seen the mat official get overridden by the judge and the chair? Happens all the time. Better to be right than to worry about a refs feelings. Look at the US Open finals match with Caffey. The ref gave him 5 and wanted 2 more for fleeing which was a terrible call. The 2 other refs didn't confirm the 2 and the right call came out of it because of the 3 person system. 

I think the attempted extra two was for Trumble head scissoring. I could be wrong though.

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On 5/4/2022 at 7:25 AM, 1032004 said:

But all of the senior guys came through the college ranks.  Why do PSU fans not have nearly as much interest in Nolf now even though he's still a PSU alum and NLWC wrestler?

Because he’s not scoring points for them anymore. 

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12 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Spend time lurking on BWI. There is plenty of Nolf freestyle content.

No thanks.  I'm sure there are some fans that follow freestyle as well, especially on the a wrestling forum, but the fans who fill the stadium are mainly there for PSU.  Same as Iowa or anywhere else.  

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BWI has a giant thread of mostly whining about How staying in bounds and countering pushing is totes difficult. 
 

Though some are actually being original and simply wish there was more par tare time and bottom had to “do more”. Like ye olden days. Which at least on brand for PA. So I’ll give credit

But. A good chunk said they watch for nolf Taylor and other alum 

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Lots of off season chatter basically about everything in folk stinks (stalling, the edge of the mat, pushout etc) and free is amazing etc.  
there seems to be no buzz and very little chatter in the international forum about the us open.  The national championship across multiple age divisions and styles. The pinnacle of the sport domestically outside the wtt…. And yet  barely seems like an event is even going on.   
 
compare that to the drama and excitement of conference + ncaa tournament.   Crazy.  
 
I’ll take folk all day…. Superior product from the fans perspective imo.  
Haven't read this entire thread but I'm sure anyone with any level of wrestling knowledge or common sense for that matter has pointed out the simple fact that, we pay attention when athletes compete.

College season is a few month span, where people compete a lot, so yes there is fandom in keeping up with how your favorite athletes, tie in school allegiance.... Yes, there are more threads with more blind school fandom than there are year round ones on the freestyle/greco forum.

Also yes, it would be beneficial to us on the world stage (especially concerning depth) if we wrestled a more similar style to international year round .
Obviously it's not everyone's cup of tea and that's fine....

but saying we pay more attention when we have more people wrestling (in a sports that's unique to only our country), more coverage, direct affiliation with almost every state, and continuous competition for a 4-5mnth span. ... Is like saying, "I Iike food".. yeah no duh.... . nevermind this is so dumb....

Didn't compare the 2 styles or rules at all... Just said "more conversation is generated from wrestling folk so it must be better"... Great take

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On 5/4/2022 at 10:45 AM, jchapman said:

I am not saying the game is only about pinning, I am saying scoring near fall points, by rule, has to involve a pinning situation.  I am arguing that a tilt is not a pinning situation.

Section 5. Near Fall Art. 1. Near Fall Criteria. A near fall is a position in which the offensive wrestler has the opponent in a controlled pinning situation in which any one of the following three criteria are met: a. The defensive wrestler is held in a high bridge or on both elbows; b. Any part of one shoulder or scapula, or the head is touching the mat and the other shoulder or scapula is held at an angle of 45 degrees or less to the mat; or c. Any part of both shoulders or both scapulae are held within four inches of the mat. In any pinning situation, a near fall may occur if any part of either wrestler remains in bounds.

Fair enough, I understand your argument.  

Seems to me to be a rather tenuous path of technicality to follow, though, that naturally leads to defining each and every position that does or does not constitute a "pinning situation."  In my opinion, awarding points for being held past 45° is a better solution.  

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Folkstyle awards points for making your opponent do something they don't want to do - getting a takedown, riding someone, turning someone - they are all actions that the opponent is trying to prevent from happening. When someone gets tilted, they are being taken to their back, against their will. Many holds that result in near fall will not turn into a pin. Tilts are no different. If you don't want to see so many tilts, develop some defense like the coach showed in Vision Quest. Worked just fine against Columbia High. 

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