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Cael's full argument against

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-because it took 8 hrs after deadline to release the results of “the vote” and there happen to be the perfect number needed to pass the vote.

 

Here is my favorite bullet point as reason against National Duals Championship.

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-The change will increase competition and excitement? Maybe but probably not. There is less parity in dual meets than in the individual tournament. Some teams are operating on a few scholarships, some more than a few, some 9.9 and some much more than that with unlimited grants, academic scholarships, reciprocity, etc. Because a team with 3 scholarships can do a great job and get a couple All-Americans and place ahead of a team that beat them in a dual meet during the year is a good thing, not a negative. We have that mixed up. That is our sport and reason we still have 77 programs and not 50.

 

This is a meaty bullet point that has many different virtues and vices. Ultimately, the program with all the schollies and resources and best coaches/staff/facilities are always going to have a huge advantage over the have nots, in any format of competition. It's been this way forever. The only way this changes is if programs pony up or cut out altogether.

 

I'd offer up that the Dual Championships MIGHT create more opportunity for the programs with a couple of All American caliber wrestlers. Let the big dogs knock heads hard and sneak in for a better result in the Individual championships.

 

I can't find where Cael acknowledges that the individual championships are still in force, fully funded. The only real difference is he can't take home a perennial team trophy from the NCAA at the Individual Championships.

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-because it took 8 hrs after deadline to release the results of “the vote” and there happen to be the perfect number needed to pass the vote.

 

Here is my favorite bullet point as reason against National Duals Championship.

 

This is extremely troubling and I would like to know how the vote stood at high noon.

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I am glad I read it, and glad he posted it.

I agree that things may be moving too fast but I am still in favor of the proposal.

 

My biggest point of contention:

Cael talks about growing the sport at the youth level through Recreational Wrestling programs, not fanatical clubs and pee wee programs. I agree with him here.

 

HOWEVER: These Rec kids that progress up through the ranks and onto their HS Teams...why do they wrestle at this point?? It usually isn't about winning big titles, it is about helping their teams.

 

I am sick and tired of listening to guys preach about growing the sport at the grassroots level when they have never done it or failed miserably at it. These same people are usually behind some progressive program or club that involves money and eliminates the "rec" faction of our sport.

 

Some idiot even made the point about what can a local PE teacher do to help us?? These are the same guys Cael is saying can make the difference in growing the sport.

 

I think he contradicts himself here because these kids are the ones that make good dual teams for the average HS. The duals are what the big hubbub is all about.

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-because it took 8 hrs after deadline to release the results of “the vote” and there happen to be the perfect number needed to pass the vote.

 

Here is my favorite bullet point as reason against National Duals Championship.

 

This is extremely troubling and I would like to know how the vote stood at high noon.

 

You think the fix is in too Flying Tiger?

 

Maybe you guys can rally and pay for the independent accounting firm to audit the results.

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After all what time? Cael said exactly what is right for the sport and this savior dual tournament farce is far from a done deal despite the vote and the tactics used in the last few days.

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Scribe... Cael has been feverishly trying to contact coaches for the last three weeks personally to address this issue. His blog is for us ...not the coaches... The rest of the coaches simply decided to let Cael do all the work. Brands helped but in the bottom of the 8th inning. Tournament results are a far better indicator of the quality of a team for many reasons.. If you want to know them gladly do that as long as you can "articulate why you think duals are a better indicator of team strength".. Not looking to create a battle...just an intelligent discussion

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[highlight=#ecf3f7]

So after all this time...... he waits until the vote is done to articulate his thoughts?[/highlight]

No, he indicates that he is posting "some of the arguments we have been making the last three weeks to the 77 D-I programs." Obviously then, he is informing a larger audience what concerns he was voicing to the other coaches - well before the vote was taken.

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I can't find where Cael acknowledges that the individual championships are still in force, fully funded. The only real difference is he can't take home a perennial team trophy from the NCAA at the Individual Championships.

Hmm...it appears that you've conceded that Penn State has already become a dynasty (like Oklahoma State and then Iowa during their great runs) with regards to the current "individual" tournament. And, although I'm a Penn State fan, I'm not ready to declare them a " perennial power" of the magnitude you, as well as others, seem to suggest. In fact, I believe their success in recent NCAA tournaments (along with strong finishes by Cornell and Ohio Sate) show a trend toward greater parity in the sport.

 

However, if Penn State is indeed considered as unbeatable in the future, then perhaps some are supporting the change to a different scoring format for that reason alone. (For the record, I hope this is not the case and was glad to see Brands come out against the proposed change. Obviously, he's not ready to concede that the future belongs to Penn State.)

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Scribe... Cael has been feverishly trying to contact coaches for the last three weeks personally to address this issue. His blog is for us ...not the coaches... The rest of the coaches simply decided to let Cael do all the work. Brands helped but in the bottom of the 8th inning. Tournament results are a far better indicator of the quality of a team for many reasons.. If you want to know them gladly do that as long as you can "articulate why you think duals are a better indicator of team strength".. Not looking to create a battle...just an intelligent discussion

 

 

That is funny you say that.

 

From what I have heard most coaches were in fact in favor of the proposal but as you admit Cael personally called every coach and lobbied to get them to change their mind. He created a lot of doubt by his relentless attack which I guess is his style outside of wrestling too. Cael gained more support for the idea of holding off until there is more talk than he did for not supporting a ncaa dual title. But he is spinning it that way.

 

It should have been peoples first clue what he was doing when he was in london and said ALL the coaches in london were opposed and then John Smith declares that he worked on the proposal and is in favor of it. Cael speaks as if he is the leader of the wrestling community. He reminds me of some people on this forum that say I talked to so and so and told them this is how I would do things and they didnt disagree so they feel exactly like I do.

 

We now know that Cael didnt has as much support as he claimed. He couldnt even swing majority of coaches.

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BR GUY... He has been "trying" to reach out to the other coaches..... So you are saying no one should ever spearhead anything... That because someone is trying to take initiative that you should condemn them for their efforts. Nobody else spoke out... So how would you have handled it???? We need to all get your advice on how to demonstrate leadership qualities

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Is it really shocking that Cael at PSU and Brands at Iowa are happy with the status quo? It is working just fine for them.

 

The disappointing thing is that Cael is not offering any alternatives. He is quick to point out any perceived negatives associated with the change (although most of them are debatable and not clear cut), but does not offer any ways to grow the sport.

 

With all the programs being dropped something needs to be changed in wrestling. If we keep going the same way, we will keep getting the same results (more programs being dropped). I can't fault the NWCA for going out on a limb and trying something to give the sport a jolt.

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Penn State is a dynasty after two titles?

 

Either way, the sport is.dying at the D.1 level. This may nof work, but there won't be a way to know until we try it. As much as I love Iowa, I don't want to watch the wrestle Penn State 30 times a yeAr when they're the only programs left in 25 years. We know what the cirrent system has gotten us. Stagnant popularity and a slowly declining number of participating programs.

 

Obviously Sanderson and Brands like the current set up. Their salaries keep getting higher (deservedly) and they keep winning.

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IMO it comes down to whether you think the individual tournament or a dual meet determines the better team. That's the heart of the argument. As a high school coach for the last 12 years in a state that has duals decide the team championship, I without question fall on the side of the dual meet format. This becomes very obvious when a team with 2 or 3 very good wrestlers place in the top ten at the NCAAs. That's not a good representation of a team. It's a representation of three great individuals.

 

Wrestling fans know that at the heart of wrestling it is an individual sport. That will never change. Here in NJ our dual state tournament is very popular (think over 4000 showed up) but the individual tournament is still the main event because that's what wrestling is all about, mano y mano. The duals just provide a whole extra dimension to the sport to both compete in and cheer for. It allows each and every guy on the team to bear responsibility for their team's victory. Not getting pinned or getting that bonus. IMO it's a huge part of the fun of the sport. Even if you know you aren't going to be an all American you can still be a champion as part of a team. The individual tournament will still rule, but the team duals will be lots of fun and they are a much better determinant of a team.

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What makes Cael the allknower of what is right for the sport??

What has he built from the ground up?

 

 

Who is?

Not Cael and not Rob Koll either.

 

Maybe coaching the lower levels of the sport are below them, but because they are doesn't mean they know all about growing the sport at that level.

 

If they are so concerned about grass roots wrestling then why do they keep recruiting prep school kids??

It is laughable to me to when they think they can dictate the sport outside their own rooms when it comes down to a community and networks to develop kids.

 

They get the finished product and take it to the next level. Let them stay there with their take on things.

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I can't find where Cael acknowledges that the individual championships are still in force, fully funded. The only real difference is he can't take home a perennial team trophy from the NCAA at the Individual Championships.

Hmm...it appears that you've conceded that Penn State has already become a dynasty (like Oklahoma State and then Iowa during their great runs) with regards to the current "individual" tournament. And, although I'm a Penn State fan, I'm not ready to declare them a " perennial power" of the magnitude you, as well as others, seem to suggest. In fact, I believe their success in recent NCAA tournaments (along with strong finishes by Cornell and Ohio Sate) show a trend toward greater parity in the sport.

 

However, if Penn State is indeed considered as unbeatable in the future, then perhaps some are supporting the change to a different scoring format for that reason alone. (For the record, I hope this is not the case and was glad to see Brands come out against the proposed change. Obviously, he's not ready to concede that the future belongs to Penn State.)

 

Best way to stop a team from winning? Change the rules dramatically and give the other teams the advantage the best you can. This move rings of FILA.

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Penn State is a dynasty after two titles?

 

Either way, the sport is.dying at the D.1 level. This may nof work, but there won't be a way to know until we try it. As much as I love Iowa, I don't want to watch the wrestle Penn State 30 times a yeAr when they're the only programs left in 25 years. We know what the cirrent system has gotten us. Stagnant popularity and a slowly declining number of participating programs.

 

Obviously Sanderson and Brands like the current set up. Their salaries keep getting higher (deservedly) and they keep winning.

 

We've been doing the National Duals for the past 25yrs with no success.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

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