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Can he not even make 79kg? Is it the desire to not cut? Deakin making 70, Zahid just last year making 79, his own former teammate VJ looks way bigger at 79... Hell, Dake making 74! So many guys are doing what it takes to be at their most competitive weight. 

I always thought he would've been a 4xer at 165 instead of 174. 

He was such a massive beast in Freestyle in his younger years, and if he stays 86, will we ever see him Internationally? Zahid, who manhandled him, gets the same done to him by DT. 

Am I saying he could take out Dake? No. But, he at least has a better shot in size. 

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3 minutes ago, MDC said:

Can he not even make 79kg? Is it the desire to not cut? Deakin making 70, Zahid just last year making 79, his own former teammate VJ looks way bigger at 79... Hell, Dake making 74! So many guys are doing what it takes to be at their most competitive weight. 

I always thought he would've been a 4xer at 165 instead of 174. 

He was such a massive beast in Freestyle in his younger years, and if he stays 86, will we ever see him Internationally? Zahid, who manhandled him, gets the same done to him by DT. 

Am I saying he could take out Dake? No. But, he at least has a better shot in size. 

Yes he could cut a bit more but for what?
Zahid can beat everyone but Yaz, DT, Russians....
79kg was brutal (he wasn't navigating that either... and not sniffing JB)
Never making 74kg

He was WTT Runner up to a World Medal quality wrestler, good achievement.
What more could he hope for

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57 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Yes he could cut a bit more but for what?
Zahid can beat everyone but Yaz, DT, Russians....
79kg was brutal (he wasn't navigating that either... and not sniffing JB)
Never making 74kg

He was WTT Runner up to a World Medal quality wrestler, good achievement.
What more could he hope for

This is the problem with wrestling. You're the second or third place guy and people say it's nothing. If you're the 5th place guy it really is very close to nothing. Compare that to football. You can' be the 40th best guy on one team and you're a hero. But in wrestling, as they say, if you're not first, you're last.

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47 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

He wants to coach.

Imagine if he had gone 92 KG and had beaten Jackson.  Him VS Cox for the spot HAHAHAHA

Back to the point.  His focus is that he wants to coach.  He will give 86 KG a go for 2024, but his focus is coaching.

He already lost to Jackson at 86, he certainly isn’t beating him at 92.

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This is the problem with wrestling. You're the second or third place guy and people say it's nothing. If you're the 5th place guy it really is very close to nothing. Compare that to football. You can' be the 40th best guy on one team and you're a hero. But in wrestling, as they say, if you're not first, you're last.
Absolutely, tons of wrestlers give up immediately at the senior level because of that structure.
It's like ,
"wait you're telling me to be The Guy, I'm going to have a build another 3-4 years " (after they just gave their all to reach the apex of folkstyle wrestling, it's like: start over from scratch or go do something else... Not a lot of guys hang around)

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He just isn't that good....
I mean how good is "that good".

Not starting over Dake, JB, DT, or Zahid obviously.
But he's somewhere in that next mix of guys. Just clearly behind those 4

He's good just not Senior Level World Medalist good ... Maybe with opportunity and draw, he could eek out a bronze at 79kg or 86kg

He's good just not USA 1st team good.

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1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

I mean how good is "that good".

Not starting over Dake, JB, DT, or Zahid obviously.
But he's somewhere in that next mix of guys. Just clearly behind those 4

He's good just not Senior Level World Medalist good ... Maybe with opportunity and draw, he could eek out a bronze at 79kg or 86kg

He's good just not USA 1st team good.
 

yeah fair enough. I just think the tone a lot of people take on here is as if it's a mystery why he didn't just inherit a world team spot. 

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yeah fair enough. I just think the tone a lot of people take on here is as if it's a mystery why he didn't just inherit a world team spot. 
That's the truth....

"This guy won NCAAs as a freshman and a junior world gold.,.I expected .... "

Your comment is 100% fair.

Definitely never going to be the multiple time world champ some people expected, but he is solid

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10 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

That's the truth....

"This guy won NCAAs as a freshman and a junior world gold.,.I expected .... "

Your comment is 100% fair.

Definitely never going to be the multiple time world champ some people expected, but he is solid

yeah this is all in context. 

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To be fair, he's always looked significantly lighter than what he weighs. I agree that he looks significantly undersized, but there's gotta be something about his body that makes him weigh more than he looks. I don't think his coaches, or his competitive nature, would just let him wrestle up cuz he doesn't wanna make the lower weights..... All speculation on my part tho!

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Before JB showed up at PRTC, Hall was already committed to 86kg and did not compete at 79kg when we all thought he should. I think he knows he cannot make 74kg and has decided it is best for him to focus on 86kg to be his best for Olympic year. Every time I watch him wrestle I think about how he is undersized.

I also think he is just used to being undersized. I heard that he did not go 165 in college because of Cenzo. Obviously the team benefited from this, but I also heard that he would always take L's in the room to Cenzo(rumors).

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First off, just want to say I appreciate all the responses. Love getting feedback, especially when it's give-and-take communication with respect from each. 

If he and Joseph had switched, I think he would've done better, as would've Joseph. Granted, Joseph was a 3x finalist with the two Titles. I just think Joseph and his lower body could've handled Valencia better, and Hall would've rode whoever in 65 however he liked. And was too slick to be handled at people his own size. 

It is a shame that we can only send one per weight. I know Russia would definitely thrive on sending multiple people per class, but at least those matchups would be even more exciting. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MDC said:

First off, just want to say I appreciate all the responses. Love getting feedback, especially when it's give-and-take communication with respect from each. 

If he and Joseph had switched, I think he would've done better, as would've Joseph. Granted, Joseph was a 3x finalist with the two Titles. I just think Joseph and his lower body could've handled Valencia better, and Hall would've rode whoever in 65 however he liked. And was too slick to be handled at people his own size. 

It is a shame that we can only send one per weight. I know Russia would definitely thrive on sending multiple people per class, but at least those matchups would be even more exciting. 

 

 

Joseph is thicker now than college and was always the smaller wrestler when he wrestled 165.

I am of the mind that him and Nolf should have swapped.  His Frosh season he went 165 because he could not beat Zain for 149 or Nolf for 157, simply put.

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23 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Yes he could cut a bit more but for what?
Zahid can beat everyone but Yaz, DT, Russians....
79kg was brutal (he wasn't navigating that either... and not sniffing JB)
Never making 74kg

He was WTT Runner up to a World Medal quality wrestler, good achievement.
What more could he hope for

I know he was bigger and it’s practice but JB has said that Mark has beaten him several times in simulation matches. 
 

I think his problem is he just doesn’t generate enough offense. He’s always been so good defensively. Zahid is constantly on his offense or setting it up. Also don’t think he has a good natural gas tank which contributes to his lack of offense. He’s a fantastic coach. I went to PSU camps for several years while he was there and he was my favorite clinician and I saw them all there. 

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1 minute ago, AnklePicker said:

I know he was bigger and it’s practice but JB has said that Mark has beaten him several times in simulation matches
 

I think his problem is he just doesn’t generate enough offense. He’s always been so good defensively. Zahid is constantly on his offense or setting it up. Also don’t think he has a good natural gas tank which contributes to his lack of offense. He’s a fantastic coach. I went to PSU camps for several years while he was there and he was my favorite clinician and I saw them all there. 

As far as wrestling goes, I would assume, Hall, who has been at the "Top" since birth, has a more elite understanding than JB.
I bet when its not "Win at all costs" he brings more to the table.
But when it comes down to top-shelf, winning wrestling "under the lights", JB has the athleticism, technique, and mind to go out there and get it done.

 

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Before anyone starts replying to my above comment like "Mark Hall is not better than Olympic Champion JB how could you say that?"
Cool your tits, I'm not saying that.
I was saying I bet he has more of an advanced understanding of a variety of attacks/defenses than JB.
Who has shown you don't need to have a whole bag of tricks, just a couple really good ones, to make it to the top.
Think: Lizak probably rides Legs better than JB, so he could be a better leg riding coach..... don't dumb it down to "More world titles means he must have more of an understanding of all things wrestling"

@AnklePicker you responded as I started to type this

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Well my tits were hot.  Maybe, maybe you could make your claim if we’re talking folk style coach, but no way freestyle. 

We will forever disagree on this one.

 

But one last attempt to bring you to the middle.

JB has elite leg attacks (really developing that pick/low single) his main one being the blast double, where he sacrifices his head/neck while his opponent bites on a fake or chooses to attack him.... He is basically the best in the world at that .

But that doesn't mean he has a solid chest wrap, or head pinch, or high C or crotch lift or gut or even then best scrambling....

So all I'm saying, is if nothing is on the line "practice matches" and he's trying new things and not just waiting for clear scoring opportunities off his bread and butter..... and he is wrestling Hall, who's a little bigger, clearly has more incentive to give extra effort, and is at least on the same level as JB in a lot of wrestling positions (I'd say overall superior personally) yeah seems super conceivable.

 

Just like Zahid is better on his feet than Taylor despite having 0 world medals, if the rumor came out that Zahid took Taylor down 10 consecutive times in practice, I wouldn't bat an eye because he is clearly more of a takedown artist. Does that mean he's better in a match? No.

Taylor is serviceable enough from neutral and when he gets to his mat wrestling it's game over. But if it was just takedowns, yes World/Olympic Champion David Taylor is not as skilled as 0 time medalist Zahid Valencia.

 

Lots goes into winning a match.

Dake doesnt shoot much when it's important for a reason.

JB will find his shot when it's important for a reason .

Snyder keeps the pressure and pushouts stacking up for a reason .

Taylor creates scrambling action with his long shots for a reason.

 

The best guys get to what they're best at ....winning doesn't mean you're super well rounded, just means you've mastered winning

 

 

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56 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Taylor is serviceable enough from neutral

Understatement of the millenium.

 

57 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Just like Zahid is better on his feet than Taylor despite having 0 world medals

In fantasy land, yes.

 

57 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

But if it was just takedowns, yes World/Olympic Champion David Taylor is not as skilled as 0 time medalist Zahid Valencia.

Where the unicorns fly and everyone stands in a circle singing Kumbaya.

 

58 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

if the rumor came out that Zahid took Taylor down 10 consecutive times in practice, I wouldn't bat an eye

I would have to conclude that Zahid would be the favorite in any match between the two, and that isn't the case.

 

59 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

We will forever disagree on this one.

It seems we will forever disagree on many things...

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It seems we will forever disagree on many things...
Yeah, adding fantasy land, unicorns, and all that stuff really made me see the TD machine you've identified as DT.

Serviceable enough: meaning he doesn't have world class attacks like a JB, Zahid, Yazdani but he can negate their offense, wear em down, get them into his wheel house and ultimately win.

It's in no way a knock against him. He's simply World Class once he can get into his chess match of scramble-type positions. He doesn't have a lot of clean takedowns (yes I know he got the one at the Olympics)

But yeah If your rebuttal is "yeah right in your dreams" ....
That's fine you win

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