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3 hours ago, spladle08 said:

I'm not saying he's chopped liver. I'm saying Junior World Champ, NCAA champ, Mark Hall, might have a deeper "bag of tricks" ....

Sure man...

Tommy Chong - Northernstars.ca

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30 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

The link isn't working for you?  It does me.... I'm excited to see what's behind it (I havent paid enough attention to the convo)

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The article link works. But in the article is another link, "explore the data on your own here" that no longer works. I was looking to get at the raw data.

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Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The article link works. But in the article is another link, "explore the data on your own here" that no longer works. I was looking to get at the raw data.

Oh, my bad and I would like to see it.
I went through 3 different fat-testing procedures at 3 different schools and they were all very different.
I don't trust those tests either way but ... ehhh well Cenzo is a thicky

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11 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Oh, my bad and I would like to see it.
I went through 3 different fat-testing procedures at 3 different schools and they were all very different.
I don't trust those tests either way but ... ehhh well Cenzo is a thicky

The funny thing is when I see him on video he does look thick, but when I have met him in person he looked kind of small to me.

Perhaps that is a statement more about my waist line than his.

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The funny thing is when I see him on video he does look thick, but when I have met him in person he looked kind of small to me.
Perhaps that is a statement more about my waist line than his.
Hahahah I do that all the time with wrestlers
I'm like, this monster on the screen is not the wittle guy I know as a friend.....
I always end up at the conclusion I don't realize how I look to other people #FatA$$

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5 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Yep you're 100% right the guy who achieves the most understands all the positions at a higher level than anyone else.

Your sarcasm is noted, but...

The fact that you tried to pass off a dimwitted analysis of two of the most technical and decorated wrestlers in the world is not what makes your posts laughable. What makes them laughable is your inability to accept being spanked by multiple poster.  Accept your defeat with grace, although I know that's not your style. 

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8 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Your sarcasm is noted, but...

The fact that you tried to pass off a dimwitted analysis of two of the most technical and decorated wrestlers in the world is not what makes your posts laughable. What makes them laughable is your inability to accept being spanked by multiple poster.  Accept your defeat with grace, although I know that's not your style. 

I kinda like his style.

Sure he is making an argument I completely disagree with, but so what?

He isn't taking shots. He is just saying stuff a lot of people disagree with. This place would be pretty boring if we all agreed.

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Your sarcasm is noted, but...
The fact that you tried to pass off a dimwitted analysis of two of the most technical and decorated wrestlers in the world is not what makes your posts laughable. What makes them laughable is your inability to accept being spanked by multiple poster.  Accept your defeat with grace, although I know that's not your style. 
Like I said, y'all are right.

JB has the best throws.
Taylor has the best underhooks.

There's no way a 2nd tier guy domestically could possibly be better at any facet of wrestling than those guys because the 2nd tier guy hasn't won world titles.

I fully understand the logic now.

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22 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Your sarcasm is noted, but...

The fact that you tried to pass off a dimwitted analysis of two of the most technical and decorated wrestlers in the world is not what makes your posts laughable. What makes them laughable is your inability to accept being spanked by multiple poster.  Accept your defeat with grace, although I know that's not your style. 

Aye, what @Wrestleknownothing said is spot on.

Don't go trying to make it personal just to make it personal.

@spladle08 is as rock solid as they come.  Especially for a TheMat poster.

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I kinda like his style. Sure he is making an argument I completely disagree with, but so what? He isn't taking shots. He is just saying stuff a lot of people disagree with. This place would be pretty boring if we all agreed.

 

 

You specifically (ignore this other dudes )  You Don't think:

Zahid can create more offense than DT from neutral. (I fully acknowledge DT can defend it into points ) but I'm not saying Taylor Venz from Nebraska. Im saying Zahid Valencia, multiple time Final X participant who has tech-fall wins.over world and Olympic medalists..... you don't think he doeS ANYTHING better than DT?

 

If it's Hall vs JB. If JB isn't shooting doubles, and is getting in practice-style matches against Mark Hall who has wrestled from the womb and isn't far back on our depth chart as well. Why would JB be so far ahead in EVERY position? I think JB beats Mark Hall 100x out of 100.... But if we are just explaining technique outside of a nasty blast double are we just saying JB has it because ..... He's won world titles with a blast double ? I don't understand the logic

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Like I said, y'all are right.

JB has the best throws.
Taylor has the best underhooks.

There's no way a 2nd tier guy domestically could possibly be better at any facet of wrestling than those guys because the 2nd tier guy hasn't won world titles.

I fully understand the logic now.

Understanding?

That way madness lies.

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2 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

You specifically (ignore this other dudes )

Don't thinkn
Zahid can create more offense than DT from neutral. (I fully acknowledge DT can defend it into points ) but I'm not saying Taylor Venz from Nebraska. Im saying Zahid Valencia, multiple time Final X participant who has tech-fall wins.over world and Olympic medalists..... you don't think he doeS ANYTHING better than DT?

If it's Hall vs JB. If JB isn't shooting doubles, and getting in practice-style matches again Mark Hall who has wrestled from the womb and isn't far back on our depth chart as well. Why would JB be so far ahead in EVERY position? I think JB beats Mark Hall 100x out of 100.... But if we are just explaining technique outside of a nasty blast double are we just saying JB has it because ..... He's won world titles with a blast double ? I don't understand the logic

Lets be clear on how much I know about wrestling...

I agree that it can be very hard to parse this stuff because the actions of one has an impact on the actions of the other.

If Valenica is a +10 in attacking from neutral (a totally arbitrary scale, so don't think about it too much), but Taylor is a +11 at neutral defense, then Valencia looks like a -1 when attacking from neutral against Taylor.

Meanwhile, if Taylor is a +8 in attacking from neutral, but Valencia is a +6 in defending from neutral then Taylor is a +2 when attacking from neutral against Taylor.

In this completely arbitrary (and fake) ranking system, yes, Valencia is better attacking from neutral than Taylor, but still can't beat him because he is completely neutralized while he only partially neutralizes Taylor.

But, how would you even go about determining those rankings? You would need to develop a strength of opponent ranking so you can make valid pair-wise comparisons. Something like Wrestlestat's Elo (which is not even a real Elo, don't get me started). In the absence of that we go with the eyeball test. So my eyeball tells me the strength of the average guy Taylor wrestles is higher than the strength of the average guy Valencia wrestles.

Now to cherry pick one example:

Blasting a double through Yazdani when trailing by one with 21 seconds left is as elite a neutral attack as you are ever going to see given the difficulty of pulling that off against a fellow elite protecting a lead at such a critical time in such a critical match. On the other hand, none of the guys Valencia teched at Yarguin are as elite as Yazdani.

I think we agree there has to be a discount factor applied to that, we just disagree on how big the factor is.

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Lets be clear on how much I know about wrestling...
I agree that it can be very hard to parse this stuff because the actions of one has an impact on the actions of the other.
If Valenica is a +10 in attacking from neutral (a totally arbitrary scale, so don't think about it too much), but Taylor is a +11 at neutral defense, then Valencia looks like a -1 when attacking from neutral against Taylor.
Meanwhile, if Taylor is a +8 in attacking from neutral, but Valencia is a +6 in defending from neutral then Taylor is a +2 when attacking from neutral against Taylor.
In this completely arbitrary (and fake) ranking system, yes, Valencia is better attacking from neutral than Taylor, but still can't beat him because he is completely neutralized while he only partially neutralizes Taylor.
But, how would you even go about determining those rankings? You would need to develop a strength of opponent ranking so you can make valid pair-wise comparisons. Something like Wrestlestat's Elo (which is not even a real Elo, don't get me started). In the absence of that we go with the eyeball test. So my eyeball tells me the strength of the average guy Taylor wrestles is higher than the strength of the average guy Valencia wrestles.
Now to cherry pick one example:
Blasting a double through Yazdani when trailing by one with 21 seconds left is as elite a neutral attack as you are ever going to see given the difficulty of pulling that off against a fellow elite protecting a lead at such a critical time in such a critical match. On the other hand, none of the guys Valencia teched at Yarguin are as elite as Yazdani.
I think we agree there has to be a discount factor applied to that, we just disagree on how big the factor is.
I agree.

Yazdani and Any Russian do show that DT is clearly a better wrestler than Zahid and they are the main "supporting" factors as far as strength of schedule . (They've both wrestled a number of the same guys from Amine to Makojev)

I also (further up the thread or in the other one) referenced that one miraculous takedown on Yaz none of us saw coming, because it was excellent.


I guess like you said in your + - I'm of the thought at full strength Zahid is a +10 offensively +6 Defensively from neutral and DT is a +8 defensively and maybe a +5 offensively.

When I originally said "serviceable enough" from neutral to mitigate Zahid's advantage, that's exactly what I meant ...

As the match goes on, I feel like DTs numbers stay the same, while Zahid really gets in his own head and in his gas-tank to where his offensive output tends to disappear and his "defense" is cringe worthy.

I think ffresh Zahid has more to offer from neutral but that's 1:30 of the 6min match .

Its going to look like Bajrang vs JO but worse
JO has better attacks, but no world medals and clearly isn't the better wrestler beyond 2minutes .

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Anyways Zahid will come out looking great and then get throttled, as I've outlined, but that won't matter , people will say "you thought DT didn't have his own takedowns, he had 3 in the final 2 minutes"

 

And all I'll be able to say is "you called it "

 

 

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David Taylor is as cocky as they come and methinks he is going to make a statement and Zahid is going to get the Myles Martin experience where DT just absolutely breaks him. That's not anti-Zahid sentiment it is just pro-2x world champ David Taylor

 

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22 hours ago, spladle08 said:

For the record taking out my frustrations from earlier conversations on you.

Yes I know JB knows how to wrestle everywhere.

But also yes what's elevated him to his heights is explosive offense, mainly a double...

I'm not saying he's chopped liver. I'm saying Junior World Champ, NCAA champ, Mark Hall, might have a deeper "bag of tricks" ....

Not a.more effective "go-to offense"

Just a deeper set of techniques .

 

I can't believe this is "controversial"

 

It is just hard for me to agree with you because you are making assumptions that cannot be tested. Mark Hall scored in a variety of way while in college. JB is a master of position and a few moves. If that is what we are going on then I can agree with that statement.

Not to mention age. JB has been in world class training at senior level for 10 years. He probably has more to offer in freestyle.

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5 minutes ago, juniorvarsity said:

It is just hard for me to agree with you because you are making assumptions that cannot be tested. Mark Hall scored in a variety of way while in college. JB is a master of position and a few moves. If that is what we are going on then I can agree with that statement.

Not to mention age. JB has been in world class training at senior level for 10 years. He probably has more to offer in freestyle.

Your pro pic... HASHTAGLEGENDARY

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It is just hard for me to agree with you because you are making assumptions that cannot be tested. Mark Hall scored in a variety of way while in college. JB is a master of position and a few moves. If that is what we are going on then I can agree with that statement.

Not to mention age. JB has been in world class training at senior level for 10 years. He probably has more to offer in freestyle.

That's fair.

This all started from somebody mentioning JB says Mark Hall beats him in practice.

So I was just saying, In my mind it's conceivable if they get into any type of match where it's not JBs "bread and Butter", Mark Hall probably is more versed.

Like you say, there's not really a way to measure this, but it's not super outlandish to me ..

 

(And If it's ever an official match, no I don't think Markie has a chance

 

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On 5/26/2022 at 2:46 PM, bnwtwg said:

David Taylor is as cocky as they come and methinks he is going to make a statement and Zahid is going to get the Myles Martin experience where DT just absolutely breaks him. That's not anti-Zahid sentiment it is just pro-2x world champ David Taylor

 

And when that happens, what's the likelihood that Zahid follows his brother's lead and defects to Mexico?

 

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