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Zelph

How Dake overtakes Burroughs

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Kyle Dake is closer than anyone else in the US to Jordan Burroughs. A bit more seasoning on this level will help him a lot a will getting a big stronger.

 

One thing would help him more than anything else: 6 months training under John Smith.

 

Dake is good. Burroughs is better. Smith was phenomenal. Burroughs has a chance to be in the same sentence as John Smith as he has both the talent and the drive. Kyle Dake is the only US wrestler with a real chance to challenge that. To do so he needs a tactician like John Smith to work with him.

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It's hard to argue with the ORTc results. Incredible turnout. Whether ORTC or elsewhere, having a world-class training partner or two to work with is going to be key to his development. He mentioned during an interview after he graduated that Koll was looking to bring in someone to work specifically wi Dake. I wonder who that is.

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Just watched JB vs Dake, match 2. Great match. Love the Flo commentators during match. Looking forward to seeing the Dake vs Howe match. One thing about Dake, he complains to officials quite a lot. Worked for him in his Jr. and Sr. years in college because he was Kyle Dake but these FS officials ignore him. Dake was looking for a finger clasp call when JB controlled Dakes wrist.

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Burroughs retires that's the only shot.

 

Dake got teched did that part get missed?

 

Taylor also had a good 2nd after being blanked by Burroughs. Does it ever occur to folks that Burroughs turns it down after destroying these kids, maybe it's adjustment they make, who knows, the fact that Dake took a 3-0 lead and still lost tells me Burroughs pretty much can control and score at will.

 

Burroughs is a more talented to wrestler and is arguably the best in the world p4p but now Dake is over taking him. Get real. It may happen but not while JB has interest in wrestling.

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Burroughs is two years older and Dake is still developing. But I think the biggest issue is physical. Burroughs and Howe still seem bigger, which is a function of their relative ages and the weigh-in rules which translate into a weight advantage.

 

At the same age and weight in a folkstyle match I think Dake would ride Burroughs into the floor, recognizing that Burroughs won two NCAA titles. In freestyle, where riding is not a factor, it maybe that like Smith, Burroughs has an unstoppable go to move. Will be interesting to see it play out.

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People really underrate the versatility of Burroughs' wrestling. It's true that he hasn't developed an elite top game (though he did score exposure on Tsargush), but if his neutral offense were one-dimensional he would not have won World-level titles. At the 2011 Worlds the vast majority of his shots were actually single legs because so many people were expecting the double. He does frequently convert a single into a double in order to power through with a clean shot and not get into a scramble situation/get exposed - but he gets his leg attacks in a variety of ways. Cael, the greatest folkstyle wrestler ever IMO, was a little too reliant on the ankle pick in his freestyle career that the best wrestlers limited his effectiveness. Granted, he was so darn good that he still won a World silver and Olympic gold. The double leg, at the very least, showcases his unmatched explosiveness and timing; it's definitely the best tool in his arsenal, especially since he can hit it from his knees better than anyone I've ever seen.

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I can't see how anyone can say someone who's never lost an international match, is Olympic champ, world champ, favorite to win their 3rd world championship in as many tries, only 4 other Americans have won 3 world championships to begin with but now Burroughs hasn't learned an elite level game. Really? are you serious. JB turned Dake and JB is not yet a good turner think about that.

 

Dude Burroughs hadn't done any FS since being a Jr in HS before winning his first title. He's still developing himself, he's 24 and Dake is 22. He won his first world title at 22. People act like Burroughs is not still developing himself, which he is, which is what makes it so scary. The guy literally has the ability and potential to be the greatest US wrestler ever. I don't see how this is getting lost on people???

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The guy literally has the ability and potential to be the greatest US wrestler ever. I don't see how this is getting lost on people???

It's not mutually exclusive to be the greatest US wrestler ever and to lose a match against domestic competition. John Smith lost four times, and he is considered our greatest freestyle wrestler ever. I agree that Burroughs deserves to be a strong favorite until proven otherwise, but of course Dake has an opportunity to defeat him at some point, he's phenomenal and even the best slip up. By the way, it's been five US wrestlers who have won 3 or more World level titles (Kemp, M Schultz, Smith, Baumgartner and Kevin Jackson. It's hard not to think of heavy favorite Kenny Monday, coming off an Olympic championship and a World title win over (arguably) the greatest wrestler ever Fadzaev, losing to Dake's coach Rob Koll at the '90 Nationals and the '91 WTT. Burroughs may have surpassed Monday, tough call, but Dake and the other competition will certainly make it interesting.

 

EDIT

After watching the second match a few times, Dake scores on poorly timed Burroughs shots, directly or indirectly. His reversal to score the 4th point was absolutely phenomenal, so much more credit to Dake than JB taking a bad shot. Still, I think Burroughs honing his offense in, has a solid advantage over Dake right now despite the overtime match. That can obviously change with Dake continuing to improve his freestyle game. In the history of 2/3 matches, it's not uncommon for the more accomplished wrestler to drop a match. Burroughs scored 8 straight points against Dake, so Kyle has much more to adjust for the second WTT match-up. After this, Burroughs will also make adjustments from the last result. The good news is that Burroughs, Dake, Taylor are all still improving and Howe too especially because he'll be fresher without the long injury.

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Kyle Dake is closer than anyone else in the US to Jordan Burroughs.

 

I think you may be jumping the gun a bit. All the evidence seems to point to the fact that, at the top of 74kg in the US, it is all about style match ups. Dake beat Taylor, Dake beat Howe in a marathon, Taylor took it to Howe, Burroughs crushed Dake and then beat him in OT (although not as close as it sounds), Taylor wrestled pretty well with Burroughs, Howe is the only person in the last few years to take a period from Burroughs (although that doesn't matter anymore).

 

Your statement here is completely dismissive to Howe and Taylor - and that is pretty ridiculous. Taylor is still in college and hasn't even begun to focus on freestyle yet (and Dake has only just begun).

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It's hard to argue with the ORTc results. Incredible turnout. Whether ORTC or elsewhere, having a world-class training partner or two to work with is going to be key to his development. He mentioned during an interview after he graduated that Koll was looking to bring in someone to work specifically wi Dake. I wonder who that is.

 

I don't know what kind of shape he is in, but Leen went shots with Burroughs in College. He would make a great fast twitch muscle complement in training for Burroughs.

 

Supposing Spates goes to SIU, I think Leen would be a great reintroduction asst coach at Cornell.

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I don't know what kind of shape he is in, but Leen went shots with Burroughs in College. He would make a great fast twitch muscle complement in training for Burroughs.

The Burroughs/Leen match was great and very exciting, but that was 2009 or 2010, wasn't it? I'm sure Leen would be a great workout partner, but I would not consider him a great Burroughs simulator. And for what it's worth, I don't think a match between Leen and Burroughs would be close now.

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Koll would have to bring in a top guy from another country, with that standard in mind.

 

Hard to simulate a guy who has a very unique (pretty much one of kind in Burroughs case) combination of skills with a single person. Would have to be several people with strengths in different areas. Sort of like a championship boxer sparring with multiple guys who all have different areas of strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure Koll has some ideas up his sleeve.

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Koll would have to bring in a top guy from another country, with that standard in mind.

 

Hard to simulate a guy who has a very unique (pretty much one of kind in Burroughs case) combination of skills with a single person. Would have to be several people with strengths in different areas. Sort of like a championship boxer sparring with multiple guys who all have different areas of strengths and weaknesses.

 

That's like trying to simulate LeBron James. Can't be done.

 

What I'm saying is Burroughs is LeBron James.

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Guest Hammerlock3

if it hasn't already been said....the defining characteristic of burroughs is that he never stops getting better. You would need drastic sustained improvement to overtake him. (Not to say he can't have an off match and lose)

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Kyle Dake is closer than anyone else in the US to Jordan Burroughs.

 

I think you may be jumping the gun a bit. All the evidence seems to point to the fact that, at the top of 74kg in the US, it is all about style match ups. Dake beat Taylor, Dake beat Howe in a marathon, Taylor took it to Howe, Burroughs crushed Dake and then beat him in OT (although not as close as it sounds), Taylor wrestled pretty well with Burroughs, Howe is the only person in the last few years to take a period from Burroughs (although that doesn't matter anymore).

 

Your statement here is completely dismissive to Howe and Taylor - and that is pretty ridiculous. Taylor is still in college and hasn't even begun to focus on freestyle yet (and Dake has only just begun).

 

Dake has beaten Taylor 5 times in the past year. He beat Howe the first time he and Howe were remotely close in weight. Dake is absolutely "closer" to Burroughs than anyone else is. With that said....he isn't close.

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That's like trying to simulate LeBron James. Can't be done.

 

What I'm saying is Burroughs is LeBron James.

 

You don't need to be the guy to pretend to be the guy.

 

The OTC folks used Casey Cunningham to simulate Bouvaisar Saitiev for Slay. If I recall correctly, Cunningham dominated Slay in practice for weeks until Slay started to figure things out. Anyway, if that's true, then Cunningham probably should have always pretended to be Saitiev.

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That's like trying to simulate LeBron James. Can't be done.

 

What I'm saying is Burroughs is LeBron James.

 

You don't need to be the guy to pretend to be the guy.

 

The OTC folks used Casey Cunningham to simulate Bouvaisar Saitiev for Slay. If I recall correctly, Cunningham dominated Slay in practice for weeks until Slay started to figure things out. Anyway, if that's true, then Cunningham probably should have always pretended to be Saitiev.

 

LMAO!!!!!!! I've always wondered about that ...

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