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JerseyJoey

Taylor is never going to beat Dake

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Exactly the lack of pins says it all and he was 0-5 against Metcalf. Dake and Taylor were at higher levels in college over JB case closed. JB had a 2-1 dec win over Caldwell his senior year. I think it is very possible that one of these guys beats and dethrones Burroughs before 2016. Any one of these three could bump up and win 84k also unless Cael returns or Q enters. If JB runs the table through 2016 against this then I will change my mind and call him the best of all time.

 

 

Didn't Dake have 3 , 1 pt decisions over Taylor?

 

JB also had a major over Caldwell , in the finals.

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Confused by a lot of people's logic here but I'll pose a question here.

 

Rank these wrestlers based on NCAA Career and matches exclusively.

 

Kyle Dake, Cael Sanderson, David Taylor, John Smith, Jordan Burroughs, Jordan Oliver, Brent Metcalf, Terry Brands, Tom Brands, Dan Gable, Greg Jones, Ben Askren, Travis Lee, Jake Rosholt.

 

Who was better or who had the better Career.

 

I'd be hard-pressed to see anyone including Metcalf beating JB his Jr and definitely not his senior year. The guy was the best in the world, we just didn't know it yet.

 

Steffi Graf and Navritolava have thus better Careers than Serena Williams, but are either actually better, doubtful. In the same vain Margaret Court had a better careers than Graf or Navritolova , but no one would argue Court is the best of all time. She's not even top 5.

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Exactly the lack of pins says it all and he was 0-5 against Metcalf. Dake and Taylor were at higher levels in college over JB case closed. JB had a 2-1 dec win over Caldwell his senior year. I think it is very possible that one of these guys beats and dethrones Burroughs before 2016. Any one of these three could bump up and win 84k also unless Cael returns or Q enters. If JB runs the table through 2016 against this then I will change my mind and call him the best of all time.

 

 

The problem in comparing is that freestyle and folkstyle are very different. In freestyle you have no mat wrestling, no escape points, the push out which would prevent wrestling the edges, no riding time, and even control for a take down is less. Burroughs skills and style are perfectly suited for freestyle. He is explosive and has the ability to take opponents down.

It''s purely hypothetical but I think Dake beats a same age Burroughs in a folkstyle match. Burroughs could be ridden and Burroughs would have trouble keeping Dake on the mat. And under folkstyle rules Dake could slow him down in neutral and potentially score. It's just hard to pick against a guy who has the edge in two out of three positions. Now freestyle is a different ball game. No one has defeated Burroughs and he may never lose.

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Exactly the lack of pins says it all and he was 0-5 against Metcalf. Dake and Taylor were at higher levels in college over JB case closed. JB had a 2-1 dec win over Caldwell his senior year. I think it is very possible that one of these guys beats and dethrones Burroughs before 2016. Any one of these three could bump up and win 84k also unless Cael returns or Q enters. If JB runs the table through 2016 against this then I will change my mind and call him the best of all time.

 

 

The problem in comparing is that freestyle and folkstyle are very different. In freestyle you have no mat wrestling, no escape points, the push out which would prevent wrestling the edges, no riding time, and even control for a take down is less. Burroughs skills and style are perfectly suited for freestyle. He is explosive and has the ability to take opponents down.

It''s purely hypothetical but I think Dake beats a same age Burroughs in a folkstyle match. Burroughs could be ridden and Burroughs would have trouble keeping Dake on the mat. And under folkstyle rules Dake could slow him down in neutral and potentially score. It's just hard to pick against a guy who has the edge in two out of three positions. Now freestyle is a different ball game. No one has defeated Burroughs and he may never lose.

 

 

Common opponents don't mean anything but Burroughs majored and beat Caldwell 2-1 his last year, while Dake beat him 2-0.

 

I think Burroughs vs Dake coming out of college would be a helluva match.

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With the new format, it's kind of hard to follow everything. WHere is this?

 

Summed up with this question a few posts back. If a wrestler existed who pinned every opponent he met in the NCAA but lost four times in the NCAA final to Cael in max OT (each time), where would you place this wrestler in history? Is he behind every 1x NCAA champ?

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Was Stephen Neal's "college" career better than Jordon Burroughs?

 

He went 4, 2, 1, 1 at Cal-State Bakersfield. He beat Brock Lesnar in the 1999 NCAA finals (Lesnar won the 2000 NCAA Championship).

 

A few months removed from leaving college he won the 1999 130k World Championship in a weight that included 1998 World Champion Abbas Jadidi (97k) and 130kg Bronze medalist Shumilin from tripster's homeland.

 

He was beat out by his rival Kerry McCoy for the 2000 Olympic slot, but went on to win 3 "World Championships" with the New England Patriots.

 

Neal was not a CA State champion (1 time placer 4th at 189).

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No two titles are comparable, unfortunately, but it's fun to speculate. Even titles won in the same year at different weights, or titles at the same weight in consecutive years are not comparable.

 

There are ultimately two different issues mixed up into college p4p discussions. First, Who had the better college career? Often, that issue can satisfactorily be settled by looking at NCAA placements and dominance. The second issue is, Who attained the highest level of skill? That is far more subjective, and freestyle results soon after college are more logically connected to that question.

 

So, if we consider who was the best of Pat Smith, Joe Williams, and Jordan Burroughs, you'd have to first define "best." In my opinion, Pat Smith had the best college career, while Jordan Burroughs reached the highest level of skill. I can provide reasons for believing this, but it's still somewhat subjective because they all competed against different people at different times.

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Stay on topic. Kyle Dake has nothing to with this discussion. He is a different person with different credentials.

I have been clear what my reasoning is. I am comparing how good they are when at their best. I put more stock into how he performed as a developed wrestler than how he performed as a developing wrestler. Frankly, I put zero stock in the latter. That is neither illogical or dishonest. You don't agree, fair enough. Have the courage to answer the same yes/no question that I did and we'll move on to Bubba.

 

Yes, you have been clear on what your reasoning is - and it is not only flawed, but also biased.

 

Yes, you are comparing how good they (JB and DT) were at their best, by bringing up the point that JB won a world title a few months after college and DT didnt. You did this because you stated that their overall career college statistics and accomplishments didnt matter as much as how high a level they were at during their peak at graduation. Fine, if you want to use that line of argument - I present Kyle Dake and John smith. Dake, same as Taylor, was not on the level you give Burroughs - yet you say Dake is the better college wrestler while Taylor is not. Smith is above the level you give Burroughs, yet you say Burroughs is the better college wrestler than Smith. You pick and choose when you want to use your criteria that you "put more stock into" - and when presented with other examples of why it simply does not work - you dump it and say it is "off topic". No, sir. Im sorry - but again, you cannot do that and be logical at the same time.

 

Your position is extremely illogical and inconsistent. In fact, it cannot be any more illogical or inconsistent...and it becomes dishonest when you continue to evade the implications by stating that you can pick and choose which criterion is most important whenever you want, and throw it out whenever you want. You can not do that and have a logically consistent and coherent argument. It is biased and dishonest, period.

 

You continue to be evasive and avoid addressing it - but it does not go away. Ill map it out more clearly, since maybe jumbled up in paragraph form is tough to see.

 

Comparing who was the better collegiate wrestler at the peak of their NCAA career...

**I know this is repetative, but I want to keep hammering it in so you can no longer avoid it...

Three examples:

 

1) JB is better than DT because he was able to win a World Title 3 months after graduation, and Taylor cannot do that.

2) Dake is better than JB, in spite of the fact that, like DT, he is not able to win a World Title 3 months after graduation.

3) JB is better than John Smith, in spite of the fact that Smith won two World Title while still in college, and it took Burroughs until after college to get to that level.

 

This is the single most inconsistent argument I've ever seen posted on these boards. The more you attempt to state that it is consistent, the more dishonest it becomes on top of the inconsistency.

 

Ask yourself this question:

Is the 3/14 DT better than 3/11 Burroughs?

Share it with the board. Typing the answer "NO" will be very liberating for you.

 

I already answered that question - the answer is maybe, the match would be interesting to watch - do you even read my responses?

 

At this point, I am not even going to discuss anything with you anymore. Your ability to completely evade the fact that your evaluation system is both logically inconsistent (as I have pointed out 4-5 times now, in great detail) and also biased (given that you can subjectively change the way you evaluate two wrestlers on a case by case basis)...that ability is amazing. I went to great lengths to clearly illustrate these points to you - multiple times - and you just ignore it. Im not wasting anymore time discussing anything with you.

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Exactly the lack of pins says it all and he was 0-5 against Metcalf. Dake and Taylor were at higher levels in college over JB case closed. JB had a 2-1 dec win over Caldwell his senior year. I think it is very possible that one of these guys beats and dethrones Burroughs before 2016. Any one of these three could bump up and win 84k also unless Cael returns or Q enters. If JB runs the table through 2016 against this then I will change my mind and call him the best of all time.

 

I'd be very careful in saying "the lack of pins says it all ". Some guys aren't big pinners, in fact many don't even really go for a pin every match. Even greats like Mcilravy, Abas, Uetake, Jones, etc. Andrew Alton has more pins than Mcilravy, Jones, and Uetake already, and is only 2 behind Abas with 2 years to go. Alton had more pins his true freshman year than Mcilravy had in his entire career! And of course, Alton is still looking for his first AA finish.

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You still haven't answered it. 'Maybe' is not an answer to a binary question.

Does his answer need more 0's or 1's?

LOL the beauty of the binary question is he only needs a single bit to answer it. 1 for yes, 0 for no.

 

The irony of you telling me "I still have not..." is amazing.

 

Why is maybe not an answer? I gave an entire rationale of this hypothetical match-up. I said that it would come down to 1) If Taylor could stop/slow down Burroughs on his feet. and/or 2) If Burroughs could keep Taylor from getting on top of him.

 

Yes, I did answer it. If I was betting - it would depend on the odds. If Taylor was getting decent odds Id bet on him...and if Burroughs was getting decent odds Id probably bet on him. Yes or No are not the only answers to a question.

 

Im going to go back to not discussing with you now - I don't like how much effort you have put into attempting to steer away from something I have so thoroughly outlined for you - i.e. Your evaluation system being not only illogical, but biased and dishonest as well.

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Yes and no are the only possible answers to a yes/no question. Providing a different answer means that you haven't answered the question.

 

"I don't know" is also an acceptable answer - to any question (even a Yes/No question).

 

Also, continually ignoring something that I continually bring up means you are being evasive and dishonest.

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Since I made the question yes/no, obviously you are wrong.

 

That's rght, I forgot that you can change the parameters of anything, anytime, to fit the way you want them to. The same way you can say JB was better than DT in college and simultaneously, using the exact same reasoning, say that Dake was better than JB (which is the exact opposite conclusion)

 

Also its ironic how hard you press me to give an answer you want, even though I gave one 3 times now - that you deem as unacceptable, and simultaneously ignore the question I am asking you about the invalidity of your reasoning.

 

I'm not exactly sure how your brain functions...there are too many inconsistencies to keep up with, and it is giving me a headache.

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I have not said dake is better than jb. I clearly set the question as yes/no when I asked it.

 

You're right, I read your "51 out of 100" comment backwards. That's my bad.

 

But, my point still stands about your reasoning being flawed - because I assume you'd rank JB as a better college wrestler than John Smith..no? If the answer is yes - then your reasoning is contradictory and flawed. If the answer is no - then your reasoning is at least consistent - but we are back to the "post collegiate results should not matter when evaluating college wrestling" argument.

 

And you can set whatever you want, me saying "I don't know" when I don't know is still a valid answer - especially when I gave specific reasoning. If I gave another answer when I didn't know...that would be dishonest - and I don't like being intellectually dishonest.

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I have also never said that jb > js, so don't assume. he is not part of the discussion.

 

Given your evaluation criteria, i.e. "JB is Better than DT because he won a World Title right out of college and DT is not on that level" - it is an extremely valid assumption, one that is very easily made. And it is part of the discussion when I am showing how your reasoning is flawed.

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Why would my criteria put Burroughs above Smith?

 

 

I think he meant that DESPITE your evaluation critera he is assuming you would still put JB above JS even though his during+post college freestyle results are the best for any American ever.

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Plasmodium

 

You sound really foolish here.

 

While chances are Taylor may not win a world title immediately after his NCAA Career ends NO ONE can actually predict that with 100% certainty. He may... He May Not! You CAN'T speak for something that has yet to happen! To answer your question, we will have to wait and see in about 10 months.

 

And the whole "yes or no" questioning just makes you sound childish and annoying. All the while you continue to avoid Pa-Fan's questions which simply ask for clarification on Your thought process! So as for your YES NO question, the answer I have is wait 10 months to get your answer.

 

On the other hand, new question, please clarify on your evaluation process for ranking the previously mentioned wrestlers!

 

Thank you for your time.

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I sound foolish? This is a simple discussion that has nothing to do with Dake or smith or anyone else. Further, there is no exact formula in comparing people from different years let alone different decades. Comparisons among DT, JB, JS and KD are different subjects. You are correct that DT could pull some real surprises in the next year, in fact you could have copied and pasted one of my posts on that subject.

I think Pa-Fan can have enough of a spine to actually type an answer to a simple question. He is certain enough of himself to insult me for a week, I see no reason why he can't answer the question.

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