HuskyHero133 52 Report post Posted July 6, 2013 I don't understand how you can demand an answer to your question when you've been refusing to answer the multiple questions posed to you... Saying this discussion has nothing to do with Dake or Smith just means you also do not want to give an answer to the question. Which can only make me believe the answer will be logically inconsistent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 2,224 Report post Posted July 6, 2013 They don't have anything to do with it. At any rate, I gave an opinion about Dake a long time ago. I rate Smith higher than Burroughs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2013 How can you say it has nothing to do with it??? That's the whole point of this discussion! You ranked certain people over others based on a confusing evaluation system and people want to know your rationale when your explanation is inconsistent! Again you're making yourself sound foolish, and this is coming from someone who has just been following along and reading the discussion! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 2,224 Report post Posted July 7, 2013 What?? Rank certain people? I rank Burroughs over DT. The rationale is solid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2013 Ok. And then were does John Smith, Cael Sanderson, Kyle Dake, Stephen Neal all stand within these rankings. Also what is the system in which you rank these guys? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 Wow.. cat got your tongue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scribe 1,824 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 You guys can feel free to ask me whatever questions. I may or may not answer them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 2,224 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 Wow.. cat got your tongue? This is a dead end. I don't know enough about Stephen Neal. I'm not interested enough to rank the others. I don't have a bcs type point system, but if I did it would be weighted towards the better years in a big way. Bottom line - Burroughs finishes college comfortably ahead of Taylor and Bubba as a senior proved himself demonstrably ahead of Taylor as a freshman. Those were my original points and I provided the rationale for them. What I got in return was zero rationale and insults from the peanut gallery (you) and pa fan. His brilliant logic? "You can't use post graduate results to evaluate how good someone was. You just can't. I don't know how else to tell you!" :lol: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 That's kind of a cheap cop out answer there. Dont know enough about Stephen Neal? fine! You're telling me you don't know where you would rank Cael, or Dake? What happened here is you made posts that contradicted yourself, you got called out on it, and now you're not willing to admit it. No where did I insult you in any of my posts, all I did was TRY to give you an opportunity to clarify the things you said becuase your posts DID make you sound silly. I have no horse in this race. You think Burroughs is better than Taylor? Great! guess what I would be hard pressed to find someone who disagreed! But give a legit reason for why he's better than Taylor and not better than Dake! In my opinion on the mat Burroughs is better than Both! However if I was going to rank the wrestlers based ONLY on NCAA accomplishments AND NOTHING ELSE, my ranking would be this... Cael Dake Taylor (Assuming he wins NCAAs and goes undefeated this year) Neal Burroughs Smith Now if I was to ranked them based on International competition it would be like this.. Smith Burroughs (will eventually surpass Smith) Cael Neal Dake Taylor In my opinion Burroughs greatness did not take place during his NCAA career. It began afterwards. That's when he really took off and advanced to the next level and beyond. Need evidence of this? If Burroughs retired after winning NCAAs his senior year, would people to raving over how amazing his college career was? NO! He would go down in history as a great NCAA wrestler but nothing more... Nothing less. It's what he accomplished AFTER college that makes his great! This would be like saying Burroughs was the greatest NJSIAA High school Wrestler of all time which we all know he wasn't as he only won a single state title. Burroughs is amazing. The best in the world. But it's been his ability to improved and advance at the next level that's made him great. IMO What he accomplished AFTER college should have no bearing on how his college career is evaluated. That being said, I believe that Jordan Burroughs will finish his international career as the greatest Aamerican freestyle wrestler EVER! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scribe 1,824 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 Those read like lists made just to sneak DT in them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadgerMon 226 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 So how do any of these guys fare in the all-around vs Lee Kemp? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigBrog 43 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 And Dave Schultz....and Mark Schultz....and Bruce Bomguartner....Kenny Monday....etc. And funny how you guys leave Howe of the list....he is more accomplished in international that Dake and Taylor.....not to mention he will have just as good of a college career that Taylor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 2,224 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 If you think you didn't insult me, read your own posts. At least you have a definite opinion. This distinguishes you from pa- fan. He will not say anything. I did not say dake is better than jb, I said jb is better. I do not know enough about Stephen Neal,s career to rank him on any list.I also said Smith is better than than jb. I am not judging based solely on NCAA results, because there is more information available. These comparisons are all opinions. When trying to compare people from different years, you have to use some criteria to separate them. jb dominated everyone in his best years. Others have done that, but DT did not. JB quickly followed that up with a world title. This is one criteria that separates him from others, including dt. As mentioned earlier, maybe howe, dsj and Taylor will wind up in the same bracket. DT blows through it and follows that up with a world title. Then the list might change. Given your criteria, I wouldn't argue with your lists. Let me give you a hypothetical now. Suppose DT has to wrestle at 165 as a freshman and winds up 5th. How does your list change? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 I've re-read my post and again no where did I insult you. I did say that you sounded foolish and childish with the way you were ranting on and on demanded an absolute yes or no based on things that have yet to occur. With that said you ask how I would rank Taylor if he took 5th at NCAA his true freshman year right? I'm assuming then his career would remain exactly the same else where going 5-2-1-2 I would move him to the bottom of the NCAA list provided by virtue of him having the fewest NCAA titles. BigBrog my international list is not an all inclusive greatest of all time list. It was merely an explanation of how I would rank wrestlers according to a consistent system. With that said, Taylor did have a pretty big win over Howe. Further more I would probably rank Baumgartner as a close number 2 behind Smith, slightly ahead of Bureoughs considering his 4 Olympic medals. David Schultz would be right behind but close to Cael as would Monday as they've both won Olympic Golds. Finally I believe that Jordan Burroughs will surpass all of them winning multiple world titles, as well As the Olympic Gold in 2016. What makes Burroughs so great is he continues to advance further and further at the next level. I don't think we've seen him at his best. Not by a long shot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 2,224 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 Taylor would then be 5-1-2-1, assuming no surprises. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 Your saying he takes 5th his redshirt freshman year instead of 2nd? Then goes undefeated in 2014? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 2,224 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 Yes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 And Dave Schultz....and Mark Schultz....and Bruce Bomguartner....Kenny Monday....etc. And funny how you guys leave Howe of the list....he is more accomplished in international that Dake and Taylor.....not to mention he will have just as good of a college career that Taylor. Not true. If Howes wins out this senior season he will end with 8 career losses and 3 trips to the NCAA finals. If Taylor wins out his senior year he will end with 3 career losses and 4 trips to the NCAA finals. Taylor has the better NCAA career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachDPark 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 If Taylor was 5-1-2-1 on his career I would have Neal move ahead of him by virtue of Neal's career 4-2-1-1 but he would be ahead of Burroughs still by being a 4 time AA VS Burroughs' 3 time AA. Burroughs also lost 20 matches in college. I'm going to say it again, Burroughs greatness is not because his college career... It's because of what came after! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerbufoon 40 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 To answer the original question. If Taylor and dake should stay at the same weight for the next two years, Taylor will beat dake at some point. Best NCAA Careers Cael Dake Smith Best international Careers 6 titles J Smith 5 Titles Baumgartner (although some could argue Baumgartner is more accomplished than Smith with 13 international medals) 3 Titles Kemp / Schultz /Jackson Greatest of All Time J Smith Baumgartner Kemp / Schultz /Jackson point being.........international accomplishment trumps ncaa accomplishment when talking about GOAT. internationally, burroughs is in the company of Gable Monday Tom Brands Angle D Schultz Terry Brands Wells Mehnert This summer, burroughs has the opportunity to join Kemp Schultz and Jackson should he win at worlds Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cjc007 774 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 Baum has 13 International Medals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerbufoon 40 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 International Career 1 Baum 2 Smith 3 Kemp / Jackson / Schultz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PA-Fan 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 I don't "have the spine" to answer? Coming from the guy who continually refused to answer my questioning of his evaluation criteria and its inconsistencies, and then when I pushed, and pushed, and pushed for a response, he finally, after flat out ignoring post after post, says something like "Everybody is different, and that is off the topic anyway..." and nothing more. Then this: I think Pa-Fan can have enough of a spine to actually type an answer to a simple question. It is this kind of irony that was the driving force behind me deciding to stop opening this thread...why did I go back on that decision today :roll: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadgerMon 226 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 I like Burroughs, but to put him in the same company as Kenny Monday, well, that's just not quite right. Kenny made 3 Olympic teams- so let's just not "equalize" them for now. That's TWO Olympic teams more than Burroughs. He also picked up silvers in the Worlds and Olympics. Just sayin.... To answer the original question. If Taylor and dake should stay at the same weight for the next two years, Taylor will beat dake at some point. Best NCAA Careers Cael Dake Smith Best international Careers 6 titles J Smith 5 Titles Baumgartner (although some could argue Baumgartner is more accomplished than Smith with 13 international medals) 3 Titles Kemp / Schultz /Jackson Greatest of All Time J Smith Baumgartner Kemp / Schultz /Jackson point being.........international accomplishment trumps ncaa accomplishment when talking about GOAT. internationally, burroughs is in the company of Gable Monday Tom Brands Angle D Schultz Terry Brands Wells Mehnert This summer, burroughs has the opportunity to join Kemp Schultz and Jackson should he win at worlds Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerbufoon 40 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 Burroughs is undefeated in international competition Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
