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JerseyJoey

Taylor is never going to beat Dake

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You're trying to have it both ways. Burroughs can't be ahead of Taylor or Askren because they will have better credentials, but Taylor can be ahead of a bunch of wrestlers with better credentials because you feel he was more dominant (or under the original flawed argument put forth by someone else, because he will have scored the most points in the NCAA tournament, maybe).

 

No. I am not arguing for Taylor to be ahead of anyone with better credentials. I even explicitly stated earlier that I am not arguing for Taylor over Ruth, or for him to be on the list at all. I am not trying to have anything both ways...I was simply pointing out that this specific list/grouping is ridiculous...and explaining why it is.

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Are you going to judge a wrestler by how good they were at their best or four years prior to being their best?

What is baseless? That Taylor would have had to wrestle up?

 

I am going to judge wrestlers, for a list of top 10 NCAA wrestlers of all time, based on their 4 year NCAA career...I feel like that is pretty simple. Is Burroughs more accomplished on the whole than most people on that list? Yes. Was he better or as good his Senior year as other on that list? Yes. Does any of this make a difference when you are talking about who goes on that list? No. Burroughs as a senior may even have been better and beaten Taylor as a Senior...but that doesn't mean that he is on the list in front of Taylor (who is not even for sure on the list himself)...let alone in the grouping with Sanderson and Dake - 2 of the only 3 4-timers ever.

 

What is baseless is you saying "If Bubba would have gotten his way and stayed at PSU, Taylor would have been 165. He would have been totally destroyed by JB and Howe. He would have finished fourth at best."

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Bubba had two wins over Taylor. I don't think Taylor ever beat hm. Bubba was the better wrestler at that point in their careers, so he would have been varsity. Therefore, 157 is taken and Taylor has to compete for a spot at 165. Assuming he gets the spot, do you really think he could have competed with Howe and Burroughs?

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Bubba had two wins over Taylor. I don't think Taylor ever beat hm. Bubba was the better wrestler at that point in their careers, so he would have been varsity. Therefore, 157 is taken and Taylor has to compete for a spot at 165. Assuming he gets the spot, do you really think he could have competed with Howe and Burroughs?

 

Well, since you abandoned you other point, Ill assume you realized how off your listing was..and why.

 

As for Taylor competing with Burroughs and Howe his freshman year...depends how you define compete..but for simplicity sake Ill just say no.

 

When I said baseless at the beginning, you are illustrating why right now. "Bubba was the better wrestler at that point in their careers" - no...that is baseless. Did he end up winning in the finals that year? Yes. Does that mean, had he stayed at PSU for Taylor's RS freshman year he beats him out for the spot? No, it doesn't. You are making entirely too many assumptions...and then jumping ahead to make your points - that is what I mean by baseless.

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

 

And where would you place Bubba Jenkins, who pinned Taylor?

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Baseless? Then what is a base? He was 2-0 against Taylor. There is base from which to assume he would have won in a wrestle off. I'll grant you its not guaranteed, but it is likely.

 

At the moment, some assumptions are being made about Taylor's career. However, assuming he rolls through the competition next year, it is baseless to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than JB. Two championships apiece. JB also had a 3rd, losing only to the champion( equivalent to 2nd). JB definitely beat the better competition. The freshman year is not relevant enough to distinguish Taylor. Given the virtually unprecedented level that JB proved himself to be at when he finished, he is the better guy.

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Baseless? Then what is a base? He was 2-0 against Taylor. There is base from which to assume he would have won in a wrestle off. I'll grant you its not guaranteed, but it is likely.

 

At the moment, some assumptions are being made about Taylor's career. However, assuming he rolls through the competition next year, it is baseless to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than JB. Two championships apiece. JB also had a 3rd, losing only to the champion( equivalent to 2nd). JB definitely beat the better competition. The freshman year is not relevant enough to distinguish Taylor. Given the virtually unprecedented level that JB proved himself to be at when he finished, he is the better guy.

 

He was 2-0...he beat him in his RS year (in a very tight match)...and then he beat him in the finals his Freshman year. You are using that 2-0 record to say that, certainly had bubba still been at PSU as Taylor was coming off his RS he would have beat him out for the spot...nevermind that Taylor was leaps and bounds ahead of the RS version of himself (which Bubba barely beat) by the time he got into the PSU line up. You cant do that.

 

Now...let me deal with this: "to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than JB. Two championships apiece. JB also had a 3rd, losing only to the champion( equivalent to 2nd). JB definitely beat the better competition. The freshman year is not relevant enough to distinguish Taylor. Given the virtually unprecedented level that JB proved himself to be at when he finished, he is the better guy."

 

Wow, where to begin. Two Championships each (again assuming Taylor wins this year) - yes, no argument. JB has a 3rd - which is equivalent to a second...um no. JB definitely beat the better competition - ok, even if I grant you this - it doesn't make his NCAA resume any better overall. Also, lets not forget that Taylor had Dake to deal with last year...someone of a caliber which Burroughs never had to deal with in his NCAA career. The freshman year is not relevant enough to distinguish Taylor - What?! Why? Why is a freshman year in which you lose 1 match, in the NCAA finals, while competing in the toughest Conference in wrestling not "relevant" enough to distinguish him from a guy who was 3rd at his conference and went 1-2 at NCAAs as a freshman? That is just a nonsensical, and again baseless, statement. The virtually unprecidented level that JB proved himself to be at when he finished....again, you are factoring in his post-college accomplishments. You have to be to make this statement. If you look objectively and unbiasedly at Burroughs dominance vs. Taylor's dominance, you are hard pressed to call that a victory for Burroughs, let alone a clear cut on. If you want to throw around the word unprecedented and follow it with the word dominance...you are only making a case for David Taylor even stronger my friend.

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

 

And where would you place Bubba Jenkins, who pinned Taylor?

 

And where would you put Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Kevin LeValley, or Donnie Vinson on your list? Do any of those wrestlers even make the top 1000? To answer the question somewhat, I would put Bubba over all 4 of those guys.

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There are no guarantees of anything in life, but there is no evidence to suggest that Taylor would have beaten Bubba in a wrestle off. Bubba went from barely beating him to pinning him. Who improved more is self evident.

JB beat better competition. You can argue that DT lost to better competition, but lost is the key word. A loss doesn't bolster an argument that Taylor is better than any champion, let alone JB. JB beat champions, DT did not.

The freshman year does not define how good a wrestler is at the end of their career. One of these guys went undefeated his last two years of college and one of them didn't. One of them beat champions and one of them didn't. That is far more relevant than what happened four years and 24 pounds ago.

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Taylor is and or was the better college wrestler than Burroughs and beats bubba 8 out of 10 times his freshman year it was simply getting caught by a stronger much older wrestler Taylor certainly was the better wrestler by anyone not blinded by a desire to argue anything.

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Taylor is and or was the better college wrestler than Burroughs and beats bubba 8 out of 10 times his freshman year it was simply getting caught by a stronger much older wrestler Taylor certainly was the better wrestler by anyone not blinded by a desire to argue anything.

 

I think Bubba would have beaten Taylor for the 3rd time if they would have wrestled again a day after ncaas. I also believe Burroughs would beat him too. I have no desire to argue for the sake of arguing.

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There are no guarantees of anything in life, but there is no evidence to suggest that Taylor would have beaten Bubba in a wrestle off. Bubba went from barely beating him to pinning him. Who improved more is self evident.

JB beat better competition. You can argue that DT lost to better competition, but lost is the key word. A loss doesn't bolster an argument that Taylor is better than any champion, let alone JB. JB beat champions, DT did not.

The freshman year does not define how good a wrestler is at the end of their career. One of these guys went undefeated his last two years of college and one of them didn't. One of them beat champions and one of them didn't. That is far more relevant than what happened four years and 24 pounds ago.

 

I believe you contorting your arguments to fit the idea that JB definitely had a better NCAA career than DT.

 

First you use the Bubba match against him when they were pretty even until DT got caught in a tight cradle by a older, stronger, and highly motivated opponent then you say his freshman year with the dominating undefeated season leading up to a 2nd place NCAA finish doesn't count because it is 4 years earlier than senior year.

 

Then you say as sophmore JB's 3rd place is just as good or better than DT's 2nd as a junior even though he lost to the #1 or #2 best NCAA wrestler of all time.

 

I don't understand that... JB is amazing and he is the best wrestler in the world p4p today. That doesn't mean he had the better NCAA career.

 

DT was winning Hodge trophies as a sophmore and has what... 3x won the Gorriarian award?

 

It isn't a slight against JB to say he hit his peake after college (and probably during senior year as well).

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The conversation has morphed a bit.

The first point is hypothetical. How different would you view dt 's career if bubba had stayed at PSU and forced him to 165, where he would have been pounded by howe and jb?

The second and separate point is that jb did enough in his career to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than DT.

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Taylor is and or was the better college wrestler than Burroughs and beats bubba 8 out of 10 times his freshman year it was simply getting caught by a stronger much older wrestler Taylor certainly was the better wrestler by anyone not blinded by a desire to argue anything.

 

In spite of results, you reckon people should just take your word for it, that Taylor is simply the best?

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People are accepting the Taylor over Burroughs in college argument too easily. Burroughs didnt redshirt his true freshman year. Yes, he didnt place, but his 2 losses at the tourney were a 1 point loss to the defending champ and then in OT against a returning 2x AA. Would Taylor have done better as a true freshman? Considering he got blown off themat by the 6th place finisher it is possible that he would not have. Their second year they both lost 1 match at the NCAAs, Burroughs lost to the better wrestler. After that, it is all Burroughs. They both were undefeated champs their 3rd year. Burroughs did it in one of the best weight classes that any of us have ever seen ( 2 former champs) while Taylor did it in one of the worst.

 

The bottom line is that if you are one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, you don't go 0-3 against someone your 4th year of college, even if that person truly is one of the best ever. If Taylor would have beaten Dake at least once this argument would have more weight.

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

 

And where would you place Bubba Jenkins, who pinned Taylor?

 

You're acting as if I'm saying Taylor belongs in the top 10 solely because of his close losses to Dake. He's also a 3x finalist, 1x champ, Hodge winner who's likely to be a 4x finalist 2x champ who has won 98% of his matches by bonus. Combine THAT with his razor thin losses to Dake. Bubba? Would you take Bubba at his top level reached vs Taylor at his top level reached? Answer honestly. It was a senior Bubba vs Freshman Taylor so not exactly fair to throw that in. Bubba doesn't make my top 30.

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

 

And where would you place Bubba Jenkins, who pinned Taylor?

 

You're acting as if I'm saying Taylor belongs in the top 10 solely because of his close losses to Dake. He's also a 3x finalist, 1x champ, Hodge winner who's likely to be a 4x finalist 2x champ who has won 98% of his matches by bonus. Combine THAT with his razor thin losses to Dake. Bubba? Would you take Bubba at his top level reached vs Taylor at his top level reached? Answer honestly. It was a senior Bubba vs Freshman Taylor so not exactly fair to throw that in. Bubba doesn't make my top 30.

 

You keep switching around between credentials and "top level" whenever it suits you. There are several guys with better credentials than Taylor, and when you get to "top level" you're being completely subjective. Don't you then have to include the completely subjective "level of competition"? Who's the best guy Taylor beat? Derek St. John, maybe? A very good wrestler, but hardly an all-timer. Is it fair to knock down his accomplishments because of the level of competition he faced? Not really, but when you're in discussion about the greats, you have to pick nits, right?

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

 

And where would you place Bubba Jenkins, who pinned Taylor?

 

And where would you put Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Kevin LeValley, or Donnie Vinson on your list? Do any of those wrestlers even make the top 1000? To answer the question somewhat, I would put Bubba over all 4 of those guys.

 

I would put them under "Who cares, he won 4 titles". Dake's resume is unassailable. You will not be able to boost Taylor's standing by trying to knock Dake's down.

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Taylor is and or was the better college wrestler than Burroughs and beats bubba 8 out of 10 times his freshman year it was simply getting caught by a stronger much older wrestler Taylor certainly was the better wrestler by anyone not blinded by a desire to argue anything.

 

In spite of results, you reckon people should just take your word for it, that Taylor is simply the best?

 

fresh- Burroughs was 1-2 at ncaa as a freshmen did not even become a starter until mid way with several loses when DT was going undefeated other than the finals

 

soph-Burroughs had 6 loses as a sophmore when DT was going undefeated and winning the hodge.

 

Junior- year DT was destroying everyone other than "the chosen one" kyle dake.

 

senior year- DT I would imagine will equal JB and go undefeated as a national champ.

 

That seems fairly decisive in favor of DT! as a career

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