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JerseyJoey

Taylor is never going to beat Dake

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There are no guarantees of anything in life, but there is no evidence to suggest that Taylor would have beaten Bubba in a wrestle off. Bubba went from barely beating him to pinning him. Who improved more is self evident.

JB beat better competition. You can argue that DT lost to better competition, but lost is the key word. A loss doesn't bolster an argument that Taylor is better than any champion, let alone JB. JB beat champions, DT did not.

The freshman year does not define how good a wrestler is at the end of their career. One of these guys went undefeated his last two years of college and one of them didn't. One of them beat champions and one of them didn't. That is far more relevant than what happened four years and 24 pounds ago.

 

This is where you are going off the rails. I am not arguing who was better at the end of their career...or comparing them at the end of their career. I even said it earlier in this thread that this is NOT what we are talking about. What we are talking about is comparing their NCAA careers, given that this is the only somewhat objective way to determine who gets on a top 10 all time list - since they obviously cant all wrestle off for it. Ill repeat what I said earlier: JB as a senior at 165 may have beaten Taylor as a Junior/Senior at 165 - but that doesn't matter in the slightest. His overall NCAA career is not as good or better than Taylor's (again assuming he does what he is supposed to do this year) - so JB does not belong on a list that Taylor is not on - let alone be listed in the same grouping with Cael and Dake - that is absurd.

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The conversation has morphed a bit.

The first point is hypothetical. How different would you view dt 's career if bubba had stayed at PSU and forced him to 165, where he would have been pounded by howe and jb?

The second and separate point is that jb did enough in his career to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than DT.

 

You are the one morphing the argument.

 

And this statement is just 100% false, and demonstrably so. And it has be demonstrated, multiple times in this thread. Whether or not JB was the better wrestler as a senior is irrelevant - he DID NOT have the better NCAA career (assuming, again, that Taylor does what he most likely will do this year).

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Every opinion adds a little flavor. How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0.

 

Another is quality of competition. I seem to recall JB walking through an army of AAs and former champs.

 

Opinions are fine. But facts are facts.

 

If Taylor goes undefeated and wins another title this year (which he most likely will) the fact will be that is NCAA career was better than Jordan Burrough's. Notice I didn't say that he beat tougher guys, or was better in the finals**, just that his career was better.

 

** This is off the topic, but I cant just let it go. I find it verrryyy interesting how you can make this argument in favor of JB. Taylor has made the NCAA finals 3 times - he has never not made the NCAA finals. But you say since he has lost twice in the finals then he loses points...but Burrough's not making the finals twice (indeed, not making AA once) does not lose him anything according to the argument? That is absurd.

 

Ill take 2 for 4 in 4 NCAA finals appearances over 2 for 2 in 2 appearances any day. It is much more clear if you write it like this:

 

JB: DNP-3-1-1

DT: 2-1-2-1*(again, assuming at this point)

 

Who looks better now?

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Every opinion adds a little flavor. How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0.

 

Another is quality of competition. I seem to recall JB walking through an army of AAs and former champs.

 

Opinions are fine. But facts are facts.

 

If Taylor goes undefeated and wins another title this year (which he most likely will) the fact will be that is NCAA career was better than Jordan Burrough's. Notice I didn't say that he beat tougher guys, or was better in the finals**, just that his career was better.

 

** This is off the topic, but I cant just let it go. I find it verrryyy interesting how you can make this argument in favor of JB. Taylor has made the NCAA finals 3 times - he has never not made the NCAA finals. But you say since he has lost twice in the finals then he loses points...but Burrough's not making the finals twice (indeed, not making AA once) does not lose him anything according to the argument? That is absurd.

 

Ill take 2 for 4 in 4 NCAA finals appearances over 2 for 2 in 4 appearances any day. It is much more clear if you write it like this:

 

JB: DNP-3-1-1

DT: 2-1-2-1*(again, assuming at this point)

 

Who looks better now?

 

Is he better than Jordan Burroughs is the question?

 

Margaret Court has 24 grand Slam titles , was she better than Steffi Graf 22 or Navratilova 18, or are either one of those two better than Serena willams?

 

What's your point?

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Every opinion adds a little flavor. How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0.

 

Another is quality of competition. I seem to recall JB walking through an army of AAs and former champs.

 

Opinions are fine. But facts are facts.

 

If Taylor goes undefeated and wins another title this year (which he most likely will) the fact will be that is NCAA career was better than Jordan Burrough's. Notice I didn't say that he beat tougher guys, or was better in the finals**, just that his career was better.

 

** This is off the topic, but I cant just let it go. I find it verrryyy interesting how you can make this argument in favor of JB. Taylor has made the NCAA finals 3 times - he has never not made the NCAA finals. But you say since he has lost twice in the finals then he loses points...but Burrough's not making the finals twice (indeed, not making AA once) does not lose him anything according to the argument? That is absurd.

 

Ill take 2 for 4 in 4 NCAA finals appearances over 2 for 2 in 4 appearances any day. It is much more clear if you write it like this:

 

JB: DNP-3-1-1

DT: 2-1-2-1*(again, assuming at this point)

 

Who looks better now?

 

Is he better than Jordan Burroughs is the question?

 

Margaret Court has 24 grand Slam titles , was she better than Steffi Graf 22 or Navratilova 18, or are either one of those two better than Serena willams?

 

What's your point?

 

No, that isn't the question at all. The question is who had the better career - read back to catch up.

 

The point I was making with this side note (which I stated was off topic) is that the "How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0. " argument is extremely weak and borderline ridiculous - for the reasons stated.

 

**Typo in the first response. Should say "2 for 2 in 2 appearances" for JB.

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The conversation has morphed a bit.

The first point is hypothetical. How different would you view dt 's career if bubba had stayed at PSU and forced him to 165, where he would have been pounded by howe and jb?

The second and separate point is that jb did enough in his career to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than DT.

 

You are the one morphing the argument.

 

And this statement is just 100% false, and demonstrably so. And it has be demonstrated, multiple times in this thread. Whether or not JB was the better wrestler as a senior is irrelevant - he DID NOT have the better NCAA career (assuming, again, that Taylor does what he most likely will do this year).

 

I was clear earlier that I am not arguing about a career. I am merely stating the absurdly obvious. Jb ended his college career as a demonstrably better wrestler than DT will end his. Perhaps we don't even disagree!

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is he better than JB was not the question!

 

The question was who had or will have a better college career?

 

Who is better at this moment that is easy JB hands down.

 

Who was better their senior year or at their peak in college You could make a case for either and I would be fine with both arguments.

 

Who had a better overall career assuming DT dominates as expected. I don't think it can even seriously be debated Taylor hands down.

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Here's on way to look at it. If you were to compile a GOAT top 10 list where would Dake be placed? 2nd? 3rd maybe? For DT we're talking about a guy who lost once in double OT, once by a point down to the wire on a few questionable calls (the right calls were made) and once where Dake had to come from behind to win. That's about as close as it gets. So how far can you drop DT down from Dake? Think he still sneaks into the top 10 with that and the rest of his resume.

 

And where would you place Bubba Jenkins, who pinned Taylor?

 

And where would you put Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Kevin LeValley, or Donnie Vinson on your list? Do any of those wrestlers even make the top 1000? To answer the question somewhat, I would put Bubba over all 4 of those guys.

 

I would put them under "Who cares, he won 4 titles". Dake's resume is unassailable. You will not be able to boost Taylor's standing by trying to knock Dake's down.

 

So its only "who cares" if you win 4 titles? not 2 with 4 finals appearances?

 

Vak you brought up Taylors losses, clearly its fair to bring up Dakes losses (one of which during post-season conference tournament). If Dake's career w/ losing to 4 arguably worse or "as good" wrestlers as Bubba (maybe just Hump?) do not diminish what he did at NCAA's then neither should it diminish Taylor's dominance (Hodge trophy sophomore year) or finals appearances (with Gorriarian awards).

 

Taylor will end up on a very small list of 4x NCAA finalists and a 2x champ with possibly 2 Hodge trophies (unless Ruth gets it which he probably should).

 

Acadia - Yes I don't believe anyone thinks senior year JB is not better than junior/senior year DT (since he was the best p4p in the world shortly thereafter). That isn't the point. The whole 4 years of NCAA eligibility for both wrestlers is what is being compared.

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The conversation has morphed a bit.

The first point is hypothetical. How different would you view dt 's career if bubba had stayed at PSU and forced him to 165, where he would have been pounded by howe and jb?

The second and separate point is that jb did enough in his career to say that he is a better NCAA wrestler than DT.

 

You are the one morphing the argument.

 

And this statement is just 100% false, and demonstrably so. And it has be demonstrated, multiple times in this thread. Whether or not JB was the better wrestler as a senior is irrelevant - he DID NOT have the better NCAA career (assuming, again, that Taylor does what he most likely will do this year).

 

I was clear earlier that I am not arguing about a career. I am merely stating the absurdly obvious. Jb ended his college career as a demonstrably better wrestler than DT will end his. Perhaps we don't even disagree!

 

Two Things:

 

1) Yes, we do disagree - at minimum about how clear cut you think it is. JB at the end of his career was not "demonstrably better" than DT at the end of his. First because DT hasn't ended his yet. Second, because that is subjective and opinion, since they can not wrestle eachother at that point in their careers.

 

2) You were far from clear that you were not arguing that JB had the better career...you are now saying that. You spent multiple posts arguing that JB did have the better career - so I dont even know where this is coming from. But if you want to concede that DT did, in fact, have the better career (assuming he wins this year) then fine...you can say JB was better at the end all you want.

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You could play this game with a hundred matchups. Who had the better career, Mocco or Konrad? Mocco finished 2,1,1,2. Konrad 4,2,1,1.

 

No, no, no. Please do not try to make it seem like I am basing the "better career" on just that.

 

I made it very clear that my response was "off topic", and I was only showing how absurd and weak of an argument for Burroughs it was when you said"How about big stage performances? 1-2 vs 2-0." It is a silly and ridiculous argument to make in JB's favor...and I explained very clearly why.

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I was clear earlier that I am not arguing about a career. I am merely stating the absurdly obvious. Jb ended his college career as a demonstrably better wrestler than DT will end his. Perhaps we don't even disagree!

 

Two Things:

 

1) Yes, we do disagree - at minimum about how clear cut you think it is. JB at the end of his career was not "demonstrably better" than DT at the end of his. First because DT hasn't ended his yet. Second, because that is subjective and opinion, since they can not wrestle eachother at that point in their careers.

 

2) You were far from clear that you were not arguing that JB had the better career...you are now saying that. You spent multiple posts arguing that JB did have the better career - so I dont even know where this is coming from. But if you want to concede that DT did, in fact, have the better career (assuming he wins this year) then fine...you can say JB was better at the end all you want.

 

There is no point in arguing about what we are discussing. I started this sub-thread by saying if you want to create a top ten GOAT list for college wrestlers, DT would be below Sanderson, Dake and Burroughs. You are trying to change the argument to be about a career, but it is only about who the better wrestler is. That is point one.

Point two is crazy. You say it 'baseless' to assert that a guy who beats another guy twice(including by pin) is going to beat him again.

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So its only "who cares" if you win 4 titles? not 2 with 4 finals appearances?

 

Umm, yes. This is pretty cut and dry. You can bring up in season losses when people try to compare Dake vs. Sanderson, but when it's Dake vs. anyone else, I couldn't care less.

 

Vak you brought up Taylors losses, clearly its fair to bring up Dakes losses (one of which during post-season conference tournament). If Dake's career w/ losing to 4 arguably worse or "as good" wrestlers as Bubba (maybe just Hump?) do not diminish what he did at NCAA's then neither should it diminish Taylor's dominance (Hodge trophy sophomore year) or finals appearances (with Gorriarian awards).

 

No, it isn't "fair". Dake is a 4 time champion, and there is a HUGE jump when discussing credentials from 4 time champ to 2 time champ, 4 time Finalist. This is the NCAA most of you wanted, where the NCAA tournament is the only thing that really counts for determining anything, this is the NCAA you get. ANd who cares about the GOrrarian Award? My guess is you couldn't tell me the winner of this award 95% of the time.

 

Taylor will end up on a very small list of 4x NCAA finalists and a 2x champ with possibly 2 Hodge trophies (unless Ruth gets it which he probably should).

 

Not small enough that he should be ahead of any of the 4 time champs and many of the 3 time champs.

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Funny thing about Taylor. The year he won, Penn State probably would have won the Team championship without his results.

 

In both years he lost in the finals, Penn State doesn't win if he's not there.

 

As a Penn Stater, I'll take what he's done, for my school, over what JB did for Nebraska and what Dake did for Cornell.

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How come no one is bringing up that Burroughs was 0-5 against Metcalf during his freshman and sophomore seasons. Burroughs should not be in a college greatest section. Now if we are comparing entire careers it matters- Ie High School, College and International. Still it will be hard for Burroughs to ever get on our greatest american wrestler of all time list unless he goes unbeaten through 2016 or something. His High School and College bring him down a little. If Dake dethrones Burroughs and wins a couple titles then he will surpass Burroughs because of his elite college record. Burroughs is behind Cael at this point in my opinion because of what Cael did in HIghschool and college along with a silver and Gold.

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As a Penn Stater, I'll take what he's done, for my school, over what JB did for Nebraska and what Dake did for Cornell.

 

It is interesting that you put it that way, because on the other hand, I believe some of the biggest Burroughs and Dake proponants on this forum are niether Nebraska nor Cornell fans - which leads me to wonder - how would the general consensus on all three shape up if we excluded PSU, Nebraska, and Cornell fans, that is, only consider neutral parties?

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How come no one is bringing up that Burroughs was 0-5 against Metcalf during his freshman and sophomore seasons. Burroughs should not be in a college greatest section. Now if we are comparing entire careers it matters- Ie High School, College and International. Still it will be hard for Burroughs to ever get on our greatest american wrestler of all time list unless he goes unbeaten through 2016 or something. His High School and College bring him down a little. If Dake dethrones Burroughs and wins a couple titles then he will surpass Burroughs because of his elite college record. Burroughs is behind Cael at this point in my opinion because of what Cael did in HIghschool and college along with a silver and Gold.

 

I should be clear that, while I'm vehemently against Taylor being in the top 10 college wrestlers of all time, I firmly believe the content of the above post. Taylor is and will be, most likely, the better college wrestler as long as nothing weird happens this year.

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Funny thing about Taylor. The year he won, Penn State probably would have won the Team championship without his results.

 

In both years he lost in the finals, Penn State doesn't win if he's not there.

 

As a Penn Stater, I'll take what he's done, for my school, over what JB did for Nebraska and what Dake did for Cornell.

 

 

Absolutely correct. Even finishing 2nd he racked up more team points than almost every other wrestler in the tournament.

 

His style produces points, and fans, by the truckload. :D :D :D

 

Smiles for the haters.

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For all the hate that Taylor gets here, he has more people following his videos on flo than Dake. That is sort of ironic. And funny. :D

 

Always bringing the substance. You really know how to find the things that matter.

 

 

VAK, are you saying this thread is actually important? C'mon, it is about the 350th such thread on the subject.

 

The fact of the matter is that Dake and Taylor are very close. The thread title is basically ridiculously stupid as no one can know with absolute foresight what will happen down the road with wrestlers this close in ability. My pointing out Taylor's popularity is as relevant as anything else being discussed. Ha. :D

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For all the hate that Taylor gets here, he has more people following his videos on flo than Dake. That is sort of ironic. And funny. :D

 

Always bringing the substance. You really know how to find the things that matter.

 

 

VAK, are you saying this thread is actually important? C'mon, it is about the 350th such thread on the subject.

 

The fact of the matter is that Dake and Taylor are very close. The thread title is basically ridiculously stupid as no one can know with absolute foresight what will happen down the road with wrestlers this close in ability. My pointing out Taylor's popularity is as relevant as anything else being discussed. Ha. :D

 

When discussing any topic, even a silly one, there are always things that are relevant and things that are irrelevant. Taylor's popularity has no relevance to Taylor ever beating Dake or being a Top 10 wrestler all time.

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There is no point in arguing about what we are discussing. I started this sub-thread by saying if you want to create a top ten GOAT list for college wrestlers, DT would be below Sanderson, Dake and Burroughs. You are trying to change the argument to be about a career, but it is only about who the better wrestler is. That is point one.

Point two is crazy. You say it 'baseless' to assert that a guy who beats another guy twice(including by pin) is going to beat him again.

 

 

No, I am not changing anything, because you just repeated the statement that started the argument in the first place. You can not group Burroughs in with those two in terms of greatest college wrestlers of all time....you just can not do it. And like I said...you are assuming way to easily that Burroughs his senior year is better than Taylor his junior/senior year. Why? Like I said - this is subjective and could be argued either way....that is exactly why when you create a GOAT list you go by assesing their careers and accomplishments - and in that regard Taylor is clearly ahead of Burroughs (restricted to college only, obviously) - but more importantly Burroughs is not even in the same discussion as Sanderson and Dake...let alone in that group you put him in.

 

As for point two being crazy...I think you might want to re-read my point two...because I dont know what you are responding to - but it is obviously not point two.

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