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JerseyJoey

Taylor is never going to beat Dake

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How come no one is bringing up that Burroughs was 0-5 against Metcalf during his freshman and sophomore seasons. Burroughs should not be in a college greatest section. Now if we are comparing entire careers it matters- Ie High School, College and International. Still it will be hard for Burroughs to ever get on our greatest american wrestler of all time list unless he goes unbeaten through 2016 or something. His High School and College bring him down a little. If Dake dethrones Burroughs and wins a couple titles then he will surpass Burroughs because of his elite college record. Burroughs is behind Cael at this point in my opinion because of what Cael did in HIghschool and college along with a silver and Gold.

 

I should be clear that, while I'm vehemently against Taylor being in the top 10 college wrestlers of all time, I firmly believe the content of the above post. Taylor is and will be, most likely, the better college wrestler as long as nothing weird happens this year.

 

I don't know how this is not abundantly and unarguably clear to everyone here.

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VAK, let me share a different perspective with you. There are a lot of different metrics in judging how good a wrestler someone is than what is being discussed here in this silly thread.

 

Aside from Taylor's documented on the mat accomplishments, and those are far too numerous to even list at this point, he has had a profound impact on the wrestling communities first in Ohio (high school) and then in Pennsylvania while at Penn State. I could list on the mat metrics where he beats Dake, but what I want to talk about here is the rest of the story.

 

David is perhaps the single most important recruit not only to Penn State but to any school in the past many years. The entire college wrestling axis went thru Stillwater and Iowa City for decades. When Cael Sanderson came to Penn State, and he brought in Taylor (along with Ruth who technically was committed before that) it signaled a shift in the entire power grid. Taylor has lived up to his side of that commitment too. His infectious bonus point mentality has seeped into the entire Penn State room. Don't get me wrong, the other guys were also very good, but Taylor's bonus point mentality made them all better. Penn State has won the NCAA Championship in each year David has wrestled, and I'm guessing that will happen next year too. Maybe for a long time to come after that as well.

 

On top of this, Taylor has always acted with 100% pure class. When a Kyle Dake says "I'm the best wrestler in the world" before he's earned it, or when he says "I rode him like a dog" when referring to a friend, or when he taunts a poor kid from Columbia University who isn't nearly as strong or athletic as he, it lacks the class that guys like Jordan Burroughs and David Taylor exhibit on a consistent basis.

 

There is a reason why so many like Taylor. Both as a wrestler and as a person.

 

And I won't be shocked if Dake beats Burroughs sometime, or if Taylor beats Dake or Burroughs. It is the nature of athletic competition.

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I am referring to the two points I made when these posts started.

Whether Burroughs belongs in the same group as Dake and Sanderson is not part of the discussion. I place Burroughs higher on a list of all time greats than Taylor based on a judgement of how good they are when developed rather than how good they were when they were developing. As for the restriction that Burroughs' stock can't go up due to his freestyle accomplishments - nonsense. That is another data point to demonstrate how good he became. It is far more relevant than his performance 4 years prior to graduation.

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I am referring to the two points I made when these posts started.

Whether Burroughs belongs in the same group as Dake and Sanderson is not part of the discussion. I place Burroughs higher on a list of all time greats than Taylor based on a judgement of how good they are when developed rather than how good they were when they were developing. As for the restriction that Burroughs' stock can't go up due to his freestyle accomplishments - nonsense. That is another data point to demonstrate how good he became. It is far more relevant than his performance 4 years prior to graduation.

 

Let me put what you just said in different terms - to illustrate just how ridiculous it was. "When evaluating how good of a college wrestler he was, Burrough's post-college accomplishments are far more relevant than his performance while he was in college."

 

Wow.

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I am referring to the two points I made when these posts started.

Whether Burroughs belongs in the same group as Dake and Sanderson is not part of the discussion. I place Burroughs higher on a list of all time greats than Taylor based on a judgement of how good they are when developed rather than how good they were when they were developing. As for the restriction that Burroughs' stock can't go up due to his freestyle accomplishments - nonsense. That is another data point to demonstrate how good he became. It is far more relevant than his performance 4 years prior to graduation.

 

 

By definition you are saying that you are using Burroughs post college accomplishments to illustrate how good he was in college. These are, by definition, different things.

 

I agree with you that Burroughs is the most accomplished 74kg wrestler in the US, or the entire world for that matter. His record speaks for itself.

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When comparing DT/JB, I think you have to ask what's more important, how good they were on average for the duration of their college careers, or how good were they when they were at their best.

JB has far more impressive wins than DT, and I think a senior JB beats a senior DT. As freshman? DT would likely win.

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When comparing DT/JB, I think you have to ask what's more important, how good they were on average for the duration of their college careers, or how good were they when they were at their best.

JB has far more impressive wins than DT, and I think a senior JB beats a senior DT. As freshman? DT would likely win.

 

That is all well and good...but it is also mostly subjective opinion. The Senior JB would be Senior DT, etc, etc kind of stuff is nothing but subjective opinion. Even the "far more impressive wins/competition" (which I happen to agree with by the way) is a bit over-hyped. Yes, Burrough's beat a lot of guys who would become NCAA Champs..and yes 2008 149 was an absolutely insane weight class...but it is not as if he was beating all of these guys after they were already champs...

 

Also, let's put this out there. If you think David Taylor is not right up with with Jordan Burroughs in college, even at his peak senior year...you are just wrong. Would he win? Who knows. Is it certain that he doesn't/couldn't? Not by a long shot.

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I am referring to the two points I made when these posts started.

Whether Burroughs belongs in the same group as Dake and Sanderson is not part of the discussion. I place Burroughs higher on a list of all time greats than Taylor based on a judgement of how good they are when developed rather than how good they were when they were developing. As for the restriction that Burroughs' stock can't go up due to his freestyle accomplishments - nonsense. That is another data point to demonstrate how good he became. It is far more relevant than his performance 4 years prior to graduation.

 

Let me put what you just said in different terms - to illustrate just how ridiculous it was. "When evaluating how good of a college wrestler he was, Burrough's post-college accomplishments are far more relevant than his performance while he was in college."

 

Wow.

Wow indeed. His wrestling skills at the close of his college career are far better judged by what he was able to accomplish beginning three short months after his last college tournament than by what he did as an 18 year old boy.

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For all the hate that Taylor gets here, he has more people following his videos on flo than Dake. That is sort of ironic. And funny. :D

-----

 

that's awesome!

 

and now for something that will really blow your mind.... Justin Bieber has more Twitter followers than Taylor and Dake combined!

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When comparing DT/JB, I think you have to ask what's more important, how good they were on average for the duration of their college careers, or how good were they when they were at their best.

JB has far more impressive wins than DT, and I think a senior JB beats a senior DT. As freshman? DT would likely win.

 

That is all well and good...but it is also mostly subjective opinion. The Senior JB would be Senior DT, etc, etc kind of stuff is nothing but subjective opinion. Even the "far more impressive wins/competition" (which I happen to agree with by the way) is a bit over-hyped. Yes, Burrough's beat a lot of guys who would become NCAA Champs..and yes 2008 149 was an absolutely insane weight class...but it is not as if he was beating all of these guys after they were already champs...

 

Also, let's put this out there. If you think David Taylor is not right up with with Jordan Burroughs in college, even at his peak senior year...you are just wrong. Would he win? Who knows. Is it certain that he doesn't/couldn't? Not by a long shot.

 

JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is DT even remotely capable of that?

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When comparing DT/JB, I think you have to ask what's more important, how good they were on average for the duration of their college careers, or how good were they when they were at their best.

JB has far more impressive wins than DT, and I think a senior JB beats a senior DT. As freshman? DT would likely win.

 

That is all well and good...but it is also mostly subjective opinion. The Senior JB would be Senior DT, etc, etc kind of stuff is nothing but subjective opinion. Even the "far more impressive wins/competition" (which I happen to agree with by the way) is a bit over-hyped. Yes, Burrough's beat a lot of guys who would become NCAA Champs..and yes 2008 149 was an absolutely insane weight class...but it is not as if he was beating all of these guys after they were already champs...

 

Also, let's put this out there. If you think David Taylor is not right up with with Jordan Burroughs in college, even at his peak senior year...you are just wrong. Would he win? Who knows. Is it certain that he doesn't/couldn't? Not by a long shot.

 

JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is DT even remotely capable of that?

 

:roll: I really don't know how many times this insane line of argument can be brought up on these forums....

 

One, probably not - but technically we will not know for another almost two years. Two, that is completely and totally irrelevant to which of them was the better folkstyle wrestler and would win a head to head folkstyle match as seniors in college.

 

You and Plasmodium seem like you'd be best friends.

 

Also, let me give you a totally seperate reason why that statement is absurd and ridiculous.

 

JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is Dake even remotely capable of that? No, he probably isn't. So, does that mean now JB was better than Dake in college? I swear people don't even think before they write things.

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It's absolutely relevant. JB won a world title with essentially the same aresenal that he had his senior year of college. Is there even a remote possibility that DT could do that? I don't think so.

JB as a senior is superior to DT, and is likely superior to what DT will ever be. That's not a knock on DT, just a statement to the level JB had reached. He was a world champion level guy as a senior in college. Not many guys could ever make that claim.

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DT, Dake and JB have elevated their games from oly one year ago. Taylor especially. Taylor is still in college people and will still grow for at least the next two years. Dake and JB are finished growing. Howe is finished growing. If anyone will pass anyone in this group of 4 studs it will without a doubt be David Taylor. He easily could be our guy by 2016 even over JB. He may be at 84 though. All these guys can bet Gavin who is a bumped up 163 himself. Now Q is probably our future at 84-he will be a full size 84k. Anyway I am picking Taylor to grab this weight by 2015 or even next year maybe. His body, like Cael's has a great learning curve attached to it. Stumpy guys like the other three usually fade out.

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DT, Dake and JB have elevated their games from oly one year ago. Taylor especially. Taylor is still in college people and will still grow for at least the next two years. Dake and JB are finished growing. Howe is finished growing. If anyone will pass anyone in this group of 4 studs it will without a doubt be David Taylor. He easily could be our guy by 2016 even over JB. He may be at 84 though. All these guys can bet Gavin who is a bumped up 163 himself. Now Q is probably our future at 84-he will be a full size 84k. Anyway I am picking Taylor to grab this weight by 2015 or even next year maybe. His body, like Cael's has a great learning curve attached to it. Stumpy guys like the other three usually fade out.

 

Not sure if this was meant as comedy, or if you meant it? Isn't DT the same age as Dake? And only a year or two younger than JB? How do you know who will grow more, if at all? Hasn't Dake been the one consistently growing? And what have you seen from the 0-6 record he has vs Dake/JB that would suggest he'll ever be the guy?

Talk about an irrational position.

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Lets not change the subject. We are comparing the wrestling skill of JB two years ago against the anticipated skill of DT 8 months from now.

It is absolutely relevant to use JB's freestyle skills as a data point when evaluating him as a wrestler.

 

Now you add evaluating him "as a wrestler"...I like that little qualification you snuck in that. Except, we aren't evaluating him "as a wrestler" - we are comparing him as a collegiate wrestler to another collegiate wrestler...in folkstyle - the style of collegiate wrestling.

 

I mean is there some sort of physical block in you brain preventing you from understanding this?

 

Burrough's freestyle skills/accomplishments have ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE when comparing him as a college wrestler to Taylor as a college wrestler. None...none at all. You know why? Because...and this is where it gets a bit tricky... in the hypothetical world of the comparison we are making, Jordan Burroughs as a freestyle wrestler/World and Olympic Champion on the post-college Senior level does not exist. We are comparing JB to DT in college - so just imaging that It is 2010 and Taylor and Burroughs are the same age and graduating the same year and they are about to wrestle each other...the last 2 years (JB's freestyle career) have not occurred yet. It is honestly not a very hard concept to grasp...Do you see now why Burrough's freestyle accomplishments have absolutely no bearing on the discussion? Im honestly asking - are you really unable to conceptualize what it is we are discussing?

 

It really should not have to be said, let alone 4-5 times, that POST-COLLEGE wrestling should not be considered when comparing guys WHILE THEY WERE IN COLLEGE.

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Lets not change the subject. We are comparing the wrestling skill of JB two years ago against the anticipated skill of DT 8 months from now.

It is absolutely relevant to use JB's freestyle skills as a data point when evaluating him as a wrestler.

 

Now you add evaluating him "as a wrestler"...I like that little qualification you snuck in that. Except, we aren't evaluating him "as a wrestler" - we are comparing him as a collegiate wrestler to another collegiate wrestler...in folkstyle - the style of collegiate wrestling.

 

I mean is there some sort of physical block in you brain preventing you from understanding this?

 

Burrough's freestyle skills/accomplishments have ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE when comparing him as a college wrestler to Taylor as a college wrestler. None...none at all. You know why? Because...and this is where it gets a bit tricky... in the hypothetical world of the comparison we are making, Jordan Burroughs as a freestyle wrestler/World and Olympic Champion on the post-college Senior level does not exist. We are comparing JB to DT in college - so just imaging that It is 2010 and Taylor and Burroughs are the same age and graduating the same year and they are about to wrestle each other...the last 2 years (JB's freestyle career) have not occurred yet. It is honestly not a very hard concept to grasp...Do you see now why Burrough's freestyle accomplishments have absolutely no bearing on the discussion? Im honestly asking - are you really unable to conceptualize what it is we are discussing?

 

It really should not have to be said, let alone 4-5 times, that POST-COLLEGE wrestling should not be considered when comparing guys WHILE THEY WERE IN COLLEGE.

 

Correct, and by his senior year, JB was at a world championship level. The best guy on the planet at his weight. Do you think you'll say the same about DT next Spring?

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It's absolutely relevant. JB won a world title with essentially the same aresenal that he had his senior year of college. Is there even a remote possibility that DT could do that? I don't think so.

He was a world champion level guy as a senior in college. Not many guys could ever make that claim.

 

So, when I refute a statement you make, your counter is to just restate the exact same thing again? I can see we obviously are not going to get anywhere with this.

 

I took out your opinion statements since they are irrelevant, and we should just focus on the facts.

 

How about we just focus on the other approach I took, why did you just ignore that? Let me repeat it for you just incase you missed it the first time.

 

JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is Dake even remotely capable of that?

The answer to that is a resounding no, since he is not on the world team. So, by your impeccable logic, JB was the better wrestler than Dake in college...despite Dake's 4 titles to Burroughs 2, Dake also not red shirting, having less losses, etc...correct?

 

Your argument is nonsensical and completely logically incoherent. It falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

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[quote name="NJWC

Correct' date=' and by his senior year, JB was at a world championship level. The best guy on the planet at his weight. Do you think you'll say the same about DT next Spring?[/quote]

 

Refer to above post to see why this nonsensical question is meaningless to the discussion.

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Correct, and by his senior year, JB was at a world championship level. The best guy on the planet at his weight. Do you think you'll say the same about DT next Spring?

 

Refer to my previous post to see why this nonsensical question is totally irrelevant.

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JB was a world champion 2-3 months removed from his college days. He had, essentially, achieved World Championship level wrestling while in college. Why is this hard for you to understand? DT isn't at that level, and it's doubtful he will be in 10 months.

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JB was a world champion 2-3 months removed from his college days. He had, essentially, achieved World Championship level wrestling while in college. Why is this hard for you to understand? DT isn't at that level, and it's doubtful he will be in 10 months.

It is not hard to understand. I understand what you are saying completely. I don't know how many ways I can show you that this argument is totally, and at this point mind-numbingly, illogical and pointless.

 

And, once again you ignore my other way of approaching it. So, please allow me to repeat it to you for the third time now (Maybe this time you will not ignore it and actually acknowledge how I am demonstrating the ridiculousness of your argument):

 

JB won a world title a couple of months out of college. Is Dake even remotely capable of that?

The answer to that is a resounding no, since he is not on the world team. So, by your impeccable logic, JB was the better wrestler than Dake in college...despite Dake's 4 titles to Burroughs 2, Dake also not red shirting, having less losses, etc...correct?

 

Your argument is nonsensical and completely logically incoherent. It falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

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