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Tripster

Howe after WTTs

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With all the talk about Taylor, Dake and Burroughs I did not quite get scoop on how esteemed posters feel about Howe? Is he still the man or has his injury set him too far back? Is he still the favorite to win NCAAs? Is Taylor afraid of him or is he afraid of Taylor?

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Guest Hammerlock3

For the time being I will predict Howe over burroughs every time. Not if my life depended on it, but I am very high on howe.

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With all the talk about Taylor, Dake and Burroughs I did not quite get scoop on how esteemed posters feel about Howe? Is he still the man or has his injury set him too far back? Is he still the favorite to win NCAAs? Is Taylor afraid of him or is he afraid of Taylor?

Yes, Howe is still the strong favorite to win 174 which was his plan before competing in WTT. To answer your final question, the brilliant probing nature of which reminds me of David Frost, Taylor is terrified of Howe and Howe is petrified of Taylor. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

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Nice picture Medicine_Man, lol.

 

I think the people that were saying Taylor was lucky Howe was at 174 ate some crow this weekend.

 

Still think Howe is the favorite at 174. Imo, the cut down to 163/165 is just too much for him now to perform at his optimal level.

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I don't get it, why would Taylor be afraid of Howe after their last match?

I prefer to reference the Juggarnaut with Howe but this fits best here:

Cause he made Hulk angry and you not going to like Hulk when he's angry. Hulk Smash.

 

 

Clearly the WTT win helps show the critics he has the ability to beat one of our top guys. That's got to help a little with his confidence. However, the way the match does not prove Taylor has the edge over Howe and I'm sure both sides know it.

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Even though Taylor had his way with Howe he saw what Howe did against Dake and how close it was. Besides, Dake also destroyed Taylor last year at WTTs but then they had close matches in college. So, Taylor knows most likely it would be much closer with Howe in the future.

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Nice picture Medicine_Man, lol.

 

I think the people that were saying Taylor was lucky Howe was at 174 ate some crow this weekend.

 

Still think Howe is the favorite at 174. Imo, the cut down to 163/165 is just too much for him now to perform at his optimal level.

 

Really? I was under the impression that we were all saying that Freestyle had no impact or predictive value for Folkstyle. Is that changed now?

 

Personally, I've always felt it was a big deal, and this weekend made me feel completely differently about a potential Howe-Taylor match in Folkstyle.

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Guest Hammerlock3

That match didn't even make me feel differently about a Howe Taylor match in freestyle....

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howe missed a head pinch, taylor goes on to tech him. this sequence did nothing for me to predict the outcome of a freestyle or folkstyle match between the two in the future. i would say that freestyle matches have very little value when talking about future folkstyle matches. max thomusseit had ed ruth beat at universities until the last few seconds. will he beat him in folkstyle next year, or even be within 2-3 points? i will take that wager from anyone willing to give me ruth -3.5

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I don't think that the WTT match proves anything, although I congratulate Taylor for finding a way to win.

 

I don't want to call it a fluke, but it's kind of like a flash pin: 9 out of 10 times that won't happen.

 

It was certainly very uncharacteristic of Howe, who usually does not give up a lot of points.

 

I thought Jake Herbert made a very good observation about Taylor vis-a-vis the other 3 major contenders at 74kg: they've all got man muscles, and he's still a boy.

 

Which is to say that I think Taylor will continue to struggle against Howe's vastly superior strength -- certainly in folkstyle -- until he's physically matured.

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Nice picture Medicine_Man, lol.

 

I think the people that were saying Taylor was lucky Howe was at 174 ate some crow this weekend.

 

Still think Howe is the favorite at 174. Imo, the cut down to 163/165 is just too much for him now to perform at his optimal level.

 

Really? I was under the impression that we were all saying that Freestyle had no impact or predictive value for Folkstyle. Is that changed now?

 

Personally, I've always felt it was a big deal, and this weekend made me feel completely differently about a potential Howe-Taylor match in Folkstyle.

 

Considering most of the people that put Howe over Taylor based it on freestyle results, I think it's valid for me to bring up this match to refute their opinion. Personally, I still believe using freestyle results to predict folkstyle results is questionable a lot of the time but I'm playing by their rules, not mine.

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Concerning Taylor's boy muscles, did John Smith or B. Saitiev have man muscles or boy muscles?

 

Great point Trip.

 

Some of the best wrestlers never got bodybuilder type muscles.

 

Heck Cael was never even ripped or all that muscular (comparatively) up at 197!

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howe missed a head pinch, taylor goes on to tech him. this sequence did nothing for me to predict the outcome of a freestyle or folkstyle match between the two in the future. i would say that freestyle matches have very little value when talking about future folkstyle matches. max thomusseit had ed ruth beat at universities until the last few seconds. will he beat him in folkstyle next year, or even be within 2-3 points? i will take that wager from anyone willing to give me ruth -3.5

 

Exactly how do they have very little value? This is never fully explained by those who take that stance. The usual response is to cite a few examples where a freestyle match went differently from a folkstyle matchup while denying the vast majority of examples where a freestyle match accurately predicts the way a folkstyle match will go. Usually if a wrestler A beats wrestler B in a FS match, he will also beat him in a folkstyle match. This happens more time than not.

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Concerning Taylor's boy muscles, did John Smith or B. Saitiev have man muscles or boy muscles?

 

On the one hand, your point is well taken.

 

On the other hand, you're surely aware that you just happened to pick the two wrestlers of the last generation who were the exception in every sense. I'm not sure you can generalize from them on anything.

 

But you did jog my memory. Buvaisar Saitiev's first appearance on the world stage was at the '95 worlds when he beat Alexander Leopold for the gold. He was only 18. So he really was a boy and skinny as a rail. Skinnier in fact than Taylor at 21.

 

I guess all it shows is that Taylor isn't Saitiev or Smith, and that he needs to get bigger and stronger if he wants to be on top of the heap.

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Concerning Taylor's boy muscles, did John Smith or B. Saitiev have man muscles or boy muscles?

 

Great point Trip.

 

Some of the best wrestlers never got bodybuilder type muscles.

 

Heck Cael was never even ripped or all that muscular (comparatively) up at 197!

 

True enough. In fact I found the Mr Olympia style wrestlers easy to beat. The quality wrestlers that were tall and lanky were generally more difficult for me.

 

The funny thing is that I generally threw the muscle guys around like ragdolls, but I was built more like Taylor. Appearances can be very deceptive...I bet Taylor is strong as an ox.

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howe missed a head pinch, taylor goes on to tech him. this sequence did nothing for me to predict the outcome of a freestyle or folkstyle match between the two in the future. i would say that freestyle matches have very little value when talking about future folkstyle matches. max thomusseit had ed ruth beat at universities until the last few seconds. will he beat him in folkstyle next year, or even be within 2-3 points? i will take that wager from anyone willing to give me ruth -3.5

 

Exactly how do they have very little value?

 

Really? Come on, It is always explained - I have done it myself with you in a very long and exhausting thread, and explained it in very particular detail as to why freestyle results have very little predictive value to folk matches. The reasons they have little predictive value is very very simple...the scoring system and rules are extremely different in folk and freestyle. The fact that A beats B in freestyle and also beat him most of the time in folk is not as strong a piece of evidence as you suggest it is. Again...it is not hard to understand why freestyle results are not very good predictive tools for folk results.

 

Great example example...the Taylor v. Howe match:

 

The scoring in freestyle was obviously a 9-0 tech. But that same sequence in folk is 2 for the td, and 3 NF for the tilt at the end. BUT...lets not forget the rule differences - no locking hands in folkstyle...so the trapped arm gut that lead to the NF count is not even possible in folk. So in a folkstyle match between the two Taylor is ahead 2-0 instead of the match being over. (And, this is ignoring the fact that in a folk match the Howe would never attempt the head pinch at all ,which led to the td in the first place...it would be pointless to attempt in folk.)

 

A 9-0 tech fall in freestyle vs. a 2-0 lead in folkstyle is very clear evidence of the rule and scoring differences between the two styles being a huge, huge difference...one that hinders the predictive value across the two styles.

 

Despite agreeing with them I wonder if the people dismissing the reproducibility of this result aren't the same people who argued the opposite for Dake vs. Taylor last year.

 

Or how about the opposite? The people arguing for this not meaning much to a folk match-up between Howe and Taylor being the same people saying last year "Dake pinned Taylor at the WTTs, so he would certainly beat him in folk".

 

I have been consistent on both arguments (as I imagine many others have) - This result doesn't mean much to a Howe v Taylor folk match (I thought Taylor would win before this, and this doesn't make me thing hed win by more)...the same way the Dake pinning Taylor at WTTs didn't mean much to a Dake v Taylor folk match.

 

Shame we wont see Taylor v Howe in folk. Very interesting clash of styles - I think it would look like a Burroughs v Howe folk match...a lot higher scoring than a normal Andrew Howe match with him coming up just short.

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PA-Fan,

 

Go back and review those threads were we interacted. Myself along with a few others (wrestlingnerd and dsnc to name a few) have pointed out numerous flaws with your arguments on multiple occasions without a worthwhile response that engaged the major points in return. No offense, but you have done nothing to refute the position that's been held by quite literally every elite wrestling mind (In decades I've seen none support your position) that I've come across in all my time involved in the sport. And I shouldn't really even say "elite" wrestling minds/people because it implies that your position can find significant support on any level of collegiate wrestling. I don't mean to be insulting, so please don't take offense.

 

If you want to go back over those topics again, I won't be able to for a few days since my main computers are down. Posting with these little new school devices is no good for indepth discussion.

 

Edit: Last thing, FS results have very little predictive value for who? Why have I been able to use them to predict so many future FS and folkstyle matches correctly?

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PA-Fan,

 

Go back and review those threads were we interacted. Myself along with a few others (wrestlingnerd and dsnc to name a few) have pointed out numerous flaws with your arguments on multiple occasions without a worthwhile response that engaged the major points in return. No offense, but you have done nothing to refute the position that's been held by quite literally every elite wrestling mind (In decades I've seen none support your position) that I've come across in all my time involved in the sport. And I shouldn't really even say "elite" wrestling minds/people because it implies that your position can find significant support on any level of collegiate wrestling. I don't mean to be insulting, so please don't take offense.

 

If you want to go back over those topics again, I won't be able to for a few days since my main computers are down. Posting with these little new school devices is no good for indepth discussion.

 

I just gave you the main reason that freestyle results are not a good predictive tool of future folkstyle results - complete with a recent real world example to illustrate the points...and you say nothing in return ...and have the audacity to say that, in the past, I have not given a "a worthwhile response that engaged the major points in return" ? Wow is all I can say.

 

You have to realize the difference here in our main arguments. The fact that if you look at the entire body of crossover matches, most of the time the freestyle winners are also the folkstyle winners - is not being argued by me.

 

I made it very clear that what I am arguing is that freestyle results are not great predictive tools for future folkstyle matches on the individual level - this is a key difference you seem to be ignoring. You cannot just say "Well, on the whole, my point is true - so there."

 

Again, I gave you two very specific reasons to support my position: 1) The rules in freestyle are much different 2) The scoring in freestyle is much different. I then provided you with a specific example illustrating why these reasons hinder the ability to predict a folkstyle match from a freestyle result (i.e. The same sequence of Taylor vs. Howe in freestyle that made the score 9-0 and ended the match, in folkstyle, is 2-0 with about 6 mins left to wrestle in the match)

 

If you want to respond to that and refute it, be my guest. But don't just ignore it, speak in generalities, and appeal to authority ("been held by quite literally every elite wrestling mind")...none of that is useful at all in a debate.

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