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Howe after WTTs

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Again... it's not hard to understand why freestyle results are not good predictive tools for folk results.

 

PA,

 

Yes it is considering that I and many others over the years have used freestyle results to accurately predict folkstyle results. Do you not want this to be true?

 

Imo, a more accurate statement from you would be "Given my personal view of FS/folk it should be exceedingly difficult to use the results of one style to predict results in the other; however, others who disagree with my view have found them to be very reliable for predictive purposes.

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Again... it's not hard to understand why freestyle results are not good predictive tools for folk results.

 

PA,

 

Yes it is considering that I and many others over the years have used freestyle results to accurately predict folkstyle results. Do you not want this to be true?

 

Imo, a more accurate statement from you would be "Given my personal view of FS/folk it should be exceedingly difficult to use the results of one style to predict results in the other; however, others who disagree with my view have found them to be very reliable for predictive purposes.

 

 

You literally just completely ignored everything else I wrote in that response (including my reiterating my two main points and the very specified example I gave to illustrate them - TWO DIFFERENT TIMES) and picked out that one sentence? Really?? At this point im just stunned and don't even know how to respond back to you.

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Taylor isn't Saitiev or Smith, Tripler. He's going to need some muscles.

Nonsense. Obviously a kid who just finished his junior year of college isn't in the same ballpark as 2 of the top 5 wrestlers of all time with 15 World/Olympic titles between them. We're talking about body type. Smith and Satiev didn't compensate for a strength disadvantage with exceptional skills that can't be matched by anyone; they didn't have great definition because of their body type, but by all accounts felt much stronger to wrestle against than they appear. I'm sure that, on a smaller scale, jacked looking Tyler Caldwell would tell you that David Taylor feels much stronger than he appears. Yes he should get stronger, just like everyone who hasn't reached their peak, but it's not some magic elixir that stands out from all the other aspects of his wrestling that can be improved. It seems like the standard is for him to add bulk and I don't think that makes sense for his body type. Reaching his utmost potential will be determined by technique and many factors, not adding bulk.

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PA,

 

Like I said before, since I'm not on my computer it's very difficult for me to engage you in this topic with indepth posts. It's actually hard responding with these shorter posts, although I am improving. Did you not see that part of my post? I would engage you but it would take an eternity on this device. In the future I will respond with posts that address your every point. There are a few assertions in your post that you seem to take as fact that I really am chomping at the bit to respond to.

 

Also I understand your argument, and I and many others in fact have used them to accurately predict induvidual folkstyle matches. In that sense, there's nothing to refute because it's objectively true. I disagree with how you sum up my argument as "on the whole, my point is true". I do have to ask though, isn't the "whole" merely an accumulation of many individual results? Meaning if you grant the fact that my argument as you understand it (I think you are off a little on my actual position) is true on the whole, then it is true at least many, if not most of the time on the individual level?

 

Anyway PA, I just wanted to clear that up and get more clarification before I fully respond to your post. And I know it probably seems like I can respond now, actually I could but it would probably take well over an hour on this little tablet thing.

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Also I understand your argument, and I and many others in fact have used them to accurately predict induvidual folkstyle matches. In that sense, there's nothing to refute because it's objectively true. I disagree with how you sum up my argument as "on the whole, my point is true". I do have to ask though, isn't the "whole" merely an accumulation of many individual results? Meaning if you grant the fact that my argument as you understand it (I think you are off a little on my actual position) is true on the whole, then it is true at least many, if not most of the time on the individual level?

 

Yes, that is true. But it is totally meaningless when talking about match-to-match predictions...which this entire argument is about. We are talking very specifically...i.e. "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should) beat Howe in folk." This is simply not true...and I have illustrated, multiple times - with specific examples, why it is not true. The fact (yes fact - as in I am not arguing the truth to your point) that most of the time (aka "on the whole") it holds true that if you beat someone in freestyle you also beat them in folk - means nothing to the argument I am making - in regards to results being predictive across styles. Maybe you don't quite understand my position?...I don't know.

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Again... it's not hard to understand why freestyle results are not good predictive tools for folk results.

 

PA,

 

Yes it is considering that I and many others over the years have used freestyle results to accurately predict folkstyle results. Do you not want this to be true?

 

Imo, a more accurate statement from you would be "Given my personal view of FS/folk it should be exceedingly difficult to use the results of one style to predict results in the other; however, others who disagree with my view have found them to be very reliable for predictive purposes.

 

 

You literally just completely ignored everything else I wrote in that response (including my reiterating my two main points and the very specified example I gave to illustrate them - TWO DIFFERENT TIMES) and picked out that one sentence? Really?? At this point im just stunned and don't even know how to respond back to you.

 

 

 

PA-Fan,

I hope you saw my posts explaining why I haven't responded to all the points in your post yet. I actually agree with some of what you said. I'm also lost on how you believe some of your post conflicts with my position in the least, but you'll find out precisely why in the hopefully near future. Also for clarity's sake, do you think I'm asserting that I can predict the precise score in a folkstyle match based on a FS result? That has never been my claim on any of these topics. One more thing, is your argument "reversible "? Are folkstyle results not a good predictive tool of FS results? Again I'm asking so I can accurately deal with your position rather than a caricature of it. Of course I'll interact with your main points as well. Thanks

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PA-Fan,

I hope you saw my posts explaining why I haven't responded to all the points in your post yet. I actually agree with some of what you said. I'm also lost on how you believe some of your post conflicts with my position in the least, but you'll find out precisely why in the hopefully near future. Also for clarity's sake, do you think I'm asserting that I can predict the precise score in a folkstyle match based on a FS result? That has never been my claim on any of these topics. One more thing, is your argument "reversible "? Are folkstyle results not a good predictive tool of FS results? Again I'm asking so I can accurately deal with your position rather than a caricature of it. Of course I'll interact with your main points as well. Thanks

 

First off...come back to this thread when you get to a computer...whatever device you are using seems to be a post or two behind for some reason....

 

Second, to answer your questions: No - I don't think you are claiming you can predict exact scores...I am simply arguing that predicting results across styles based on results in the other style is not very useful - given the reasons I already discussed multiple times. And yes, my argument is reversible. Folkstyle results are similarly not extremely useful in predicting freestyle results - for the same reasoning (the rules and scoring are totally different). Although I would make a separate argument that it does translate that way a little bit better...but that is besides the point and I don't feel like getting into that.

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Taylor isn't Saitiev or Smith, Tripler. He's going to need some muscles.

Nonsense. Obviously a kid who just finished his junior year of college isn't in the same ballpark as 2 of the top 5 wrestlers of all time with 15 World/Olympic titles between them. We're talking about body type. Smith and Satiev didn't compensate for a strength disadvantage with exceptional skills that can't be matched by anyone; they didn't have great definition because of their body type, but by all accounts felt much stronger to wrestle against than they appear. I'm sure that, on a smaller scale, jacked looking Tyler Caldwell would tell you that David Taylor feels much stronger than he appears. Yes he should get stronger, just like everyone who hasn't reached their peak, but it's not some magic elixir that stands out from all the other aspects of his wrestling that can be improved. It seems like the standard is for him to add bulk and I don't think that makes sense for his body type. Reaching his utmost potential will be determined by technique and many factors, not adding bulk.

 

Saitiev absolutely had exceptional skills that can't be matched by just about anyone.

 

It's one thing for Caldwell to think Taylor is powerful, which he may or may not, but I guarantee that's not something that pops into the mind of Burroughs/Dake/Howe mind.

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Yes, that is true. But it is totally meaningless when talking about match-to-match predictions...which this entire argument is about. We are talking very specifically...i.e. "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should)

 

Wow, I think you are greatly misunderstanding me! I would never ñmake the argument of: "Taylor beat Howe so he will (should) beat him in folk. I wouldn't make those type of arguments without some very key qualifications. Anything I've posted in the past, read in context does not having me making such a poorly constructed argument that lacks any type of nuance like that one. I'm glad to clear that up. Having said that, I still do find your position, at least as stated in the past, to be untenable. Maybe in the future you can lay out your position as clearly as you possibly can so there is no mistaking you? I'd also be happy if your old posts are still around and unedited so I can detect any possible deviation from your original stated position. :D.

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Second, to answer your questions: No - I don't think you are claiming you can predict exact scores...I am simply arguing that predicting results across styles based on results in the other style is not very useful - given the reasons I already discussed multiple times. And yes, my argument is reversible. Folkstyle results are similarly not extremely useful in predicting freestyle results.

 

When you say results, are you including what actually happened in the match, or o

nly the final number score? Would you disagree/take issue with someone saying that they find much use (I.e. predictive power) in a FS match to predict how a folkstyle match could possibly or likely would go between two individuals depending on how the actual match was wrestled? If not, not exactly sure what I'm going to respond to anymore because it seems that's clearly different from what you've stated in the past. I remember several posts where it seemed you (or Flying Tiger?) were even arguing against that.

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Saitiev absolutely had exceptional skills that can't be matched by just about anyone.

 

It's one thing for Caldwell to think Taylor is powerful, which he may or may not, but I guarantee that's not something that pops into the mind of Burroughs/Dake/Howe mind.

The key to that (perhaps poorly worded sentence) is that he didn't compensate for inferior strength with skills that can never be approached or even hoped for by anyone with a similar body type so they might as well give up trying and change their body type to something different/bulk up. Taylor's main focus should be on Howe/Burroughs and Dake perceiving him as powerful, or even one of his primary goals? I strongly disagree. He's going to be perceived as harder to push around with better technique, not bulking up a body type more similar to Satiev's than Brandon Slay. It doesn't matter if he's not in Satiev's ballpark or incapable of ever getting there, that's not at all the point.

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What Taylor is lacking in freestyle is different throws and turns arsenal. Stronger wrestlers can rely on takedown skills but Taylor needs to be slick and technical and the best way to do that is to throw and turn. But Cael is not going to teach him that.

 

Taylor needs to adapt something like what A. Satiev had in his prime. A. Saitiev vs Romero at 2000 Olympics is a prime example.

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​The little known fact is that Howe was not 100% for WTTs, as he has been pursuing a career in acting and has landed a role in the new Addams Family movie, as Uncle Festus....some of his focus has been elsewhere.

 

 

 

The-Addams-Family-01-4_zps6da56004.jpg

 

And what a fine Festus he is!

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Yes, that is true. But it is totally meaningless when talking about match-to-match predictions...which this entire argument is about. We are talking very specifically...i.e. "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should)

 

Wow, I think you are greatly misunderstanding me! I would never ñmake the argument of: "Taylor beat Howe so he will (should) beat him in folk.

 

How exactly would you not be making this argument? If not..then what are you even saying? Your position is that freestyle results correlate very strongly to folk results (which I agree with - generally speaking) AND that freestyle results have very strong predictive power for folkstyle results. How does that not correlate to a statement such as "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should) beat Howe in folk."? How can you hold the position you hold but deny a statement like that?

 

Second, to answer your questions: No - I don't think you are claiming you can predict exact scores...I am simply arguing that predicting results across styles based on results in the other style is not very useful - given the reasons I already discussed multiple times. And yes, my argument is reversible. Folkstyle results are similarly not extremely useful in predicting freestyle results.

 

When you say results, are you including what actually happened in the match, or o

nly the final number score? Would you disagree/take issue with someone saying that they find much use (I.e. predictive power) in a FS match to predict how a folkstyle match could possibly or likely would go between two individuals depending on how the actual match was wrestled? If not, not exactly sure what I'm going to respond to anymore because it seems that's clearly different from what you've stated in the past. I remember several posts where it seemed you (or Flying Tiger?) were even arguing against that.

 

Yes I am including what happens in the match...did you miss the part when I broke down the scoring of the Taylor vs. Howe match - and explained that given the rule and scoring difference between freestyle and folkstyle the score would be drastically different if the same sequence happened if both styles - not to mention that the move that started the sequence (head pinch by Howe) would never be attempted and doesn't even exist in folk...did you miss that? Yes, obviously I am including what happens in the match and not just the final score.

 

It seems like you continue to ignore that - which I have repeatedly stated as my main argument - and continue to quote other things I've said and question them. So, one more time, here it is"

 

My Position: The match-rules and scoring-rules are so drastically different in freestyle vs. folkstyle, that the way a match goes in freestyle does not have much predictive power over how a match will turn out in folkstyle. Example: Taylor v Howe. The same scoring sequence that ended the freestyle match with a 9-0 tech fall would have only, at best (given that locking hands is illegal in folk - and that led to the 7-pts after the TD), resulted in a 2-0 lead for Taylor in a folkstyle match.

 

It is not overly complicated - it has been beaten to death many times - and I have written out that same point on this forum too many times to count - I think that is now 4 times in this very thread.

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My Position: The match-rules and scoring-rules are so drastically different in freestyle vs. folkstyle, that the way a match goes in freestyle does not have much predictive power over how a match will turn out in folkstyle.

 

its got a lot more predictive power than if you were to base your forecasts on how two wrestlers fared against each other in a game of chess.

 

i get your point, but its all relative. absent any other data points, i think freestyle match ups will be very valuable in predicting results in folkstyle. compared to other folkstyle results, they will be much less valuable, so it will depend on each unique situation. but to completely dismiss all freestyle results in all cases is not wise, IMHO.

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My Position: The match-rules and scoring-rules are so drastically different in freestyle vs. folkstyle, that the way a match goes in freestyle does not have much predictive power over how a match will turn out in folkstyle.

 

its got a lot more predictive power than if you were to base your forecasts on how two wrestlers fared against each other in a game of chess.

 

i get your point, but its all relative. absent any other data points, i think freestyle match ups will be very valuable in predicting results in folkstyle. compared to other folkstyle results, they will be much less valuable, so it will depend on each unique situation. but to completely dismiss all freestyle results in all cases is not wise, IMHO.

 

I never said, nor would I, "completely dismiss" all freestyle results. But some people give it far too much weight and predictive power IMO.

 

This argument was born last year going into the Taylor v Dake hype...when a ton of people were saying something like "Dake pinned him in freestyle! Taylor has no chance in folk!" - this was absurd in that case...and would be in most cases.

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Yes, that is true. But it is totally meaningless when talking about match-to-match predictions...which this entire argument is about. We are talking very specifically...i.e. "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should)

 

Wow, I think you are greatly misunderstanding me! I would never ñmake the argument of: "Taylor beat Howe so he will (should) beat him in folk.

 

How exactly would you not be making this argument? If not..then what are you even saying? Your position is that freestyle results correlate very strongly to folk results (which I agree with - generally speaking) AND that freestyle results have very strong predictive power for folkstyle results. How does that not correlate to a statement such as "Taylor beat Howe in freestyle - so Taylor will (should) beat Howe in folk."? How can you hold the position you hold but deny a statement like that?

 

 

 

Second, to answer your questions: No - I don't think you are claiming you can predict exact scores...I am simply arguing that predicting results across styles based on results in the other style is not very useful - given the reasons I already discussed multiple times. And yes, my argument is reversible. Folkstyle results are similarly not extremely useful in predicting freestyle results.

 

When you say results, are you including what actually happened in the match, or o

nly the final number score? Would you disagree/take issue with someone saying that they find much use (I.e. predictive power) in a FS match to predict how a folkstyle match could possibly or likely would go between two individuals depending on how the actual match was wrestled? If not, not exactly sure what I'm going to respond to anymore because it seems that's clearly different from what you've stated in the past. I remember several posts where it seemed you (or Flying Tiger?) were even arguing against that.

 

Yes I am including what happens in the match...did you miss the part when I broke down the scoring of the Taylor vs. Howe match - and explained that given the rule and scoring difference between freestyle and folkstyle the score would be drastically different if the same sequence happened if both styles - not to mention that the move that started the sequence (head pinch by Howe) would never be attempted and doesn't even exist in folk...did you miss that? Yes, obviously I am including what happens in the match and not just the final score.

 

It seems like you continue to ignore that - which I have repeatedly stated as my main argument - and continue to quote other things I've said and question them. So, one more time, here it is"

 

My Position: The match-rules and scoring-rules are so drastically different in freestyle vs. folkstyle, that the way a match goes in freestyle does not have much predictive power over how a match will turn out in folkstyle. Example: Taylor v Howe. The same scoring sequence that ended the freestyle match with a 9-0 tech fall would have only, at best (given that locking hands is illegal in folk - and that led to the 7-pts after the TD), resulted in a 2-0 lead for Taylor in a folkstyle match.

 

It is not overly complicated - it has been beaten to death many times - and I have written out that same point on this forum too many times to count - I think that is now 4 times in this very thread.

 

Thanks PA-FAN for the clarifications. I WILL definitely respond to your points in the near future. My position is definitely more nuanced than you may think. The reason I've been asking you these questions is so I know exactly where you are coming from. It seems to me either I've read some of your statements wrong in the past, or you have an updated view from several months ago.

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I never said, nor would I, "completely dismiss" all freestyle results. But some people give it far too much weight and predictive power IMO.

 

This argument was born last year going into the Taylor v Dake hype...when a ton of people were saying something like "Dake pinned him in freestyle! Taylor has no chance in folk!" - this was absurd in that case...and would be in most cases.

 

fair enough - my bad. apologies for taking your thoughts past their intended point. i think we agree here.

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Mr. Brown is waiting :D :D :D

 

P.S. The PSU "Train"!!!

Mr Brown is going to be on a long list of people who take a serious beat down from Howe next year, if he ever gets to wrestle him. Perhaps you didn't watch Howe dismantle Storely 2x at University Nationals?

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Mr. Brown is waiting :D :D :D

 

P.S. The PSU "Train"!!!

Mr Brown is going to be on a long list of people who take a serious beat down from Howe next year, if he ever gets to wrestle him. Perhaps you didn't watch Howe dismantle Storely 2x at University Nationals?

I think Howe will probably beat Brown. But it won't be a serious beat down.

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Mr. Brown is waiting :D :D :D

 

P.S. The PSU "Train"!!!

Mr Brown is going to be on a long list of people who take a serious beat down from Howe next year, if he ever gets to wrestle him. Perhaps you didn't watch Howe dismantle Storely 2x at University Nationals?

I think Howe will probably beat Brown. But it won't be a serious beat down.

It could be. Howe is head and shoulders above the competition at that weight unless Chris Perry wrestles at a much higher level than he has thus far (as hinted by some of his freestyle performances before freshman year). Dake would have won 174 last year, it was a deep weight, but not particularly strong. Ruth of 2012 would have put up bonus on everyone.

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