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Tripster

Why is American wrestling so limited in spectacular throws?

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You take Sissauri and Brands. Brands beats Sissauri in 95 Worlds but if you ask me which wrestler is more exciting and beautiful to watch i say Sissauri. He is creative and throws a lot. This is what is good for wrestling and for fans. But American wrestling is usually takedowns, conditioning and pushing opponents around. That is not very creative. What about arm throws, supplays, hip throws, firemen's carry and so on?

 

We need creative wrestlers and coaches, not one move grinders that nobody wants to watch.

 

Discuss!

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Our background is leg attacks win championships. There aren't many junior high and high school coaches that know how to do a variety of throws.

I was fortunate to learn my first Greco training from a former Olympian from Turkey.

The Soviet system of sports schools provides standardized coaching. The Moscow school had a freestyle, greco, judo, and sombo teams. Greco and freestyle would practice together one day each week. Even in freesyle they emphasize throws early on. Exposure points reward throwers, folkstyle doesn't as much. Although we've had exceptions such as Andrew Metzger and Randy Lewis who trained together many times before and after college.

I'm in a room with two wrestlers with soley OSU backgrounds, while I have a much more varied background. I teach throws that they don't know how to do. Until Gelagaeov, OSU didn't put much emohasis on throws, Eric Guerrero said they have changed and aren't strictly leg attack oriented anymore.

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The high percentage moves attitude was prevalent long before Gable. The US would win because of par terre and conditioning. The rest of the world gradually got the length of matches lowered from 15 minutes in the 1950s to as low as 4 minutes with the 2 out of 3 periods. Par terre and passitivity have been greatly reduced.

The lack of exposure to Greco at an early stage of a wrestlers career probably is the major reason for lack of throws by US wrestlers.

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Greco definitely seems like the best training for throws and actually MMA since you are not putting yourself in danger to get a takedown but it isn't very exciting to watch.

 

I like watching a good Greco match every now and again but even coming from a wrestling background (albeit a folkstyle one) I get bored with 9 / 10 matches I see. Can't imagine what the casual fan would think. Not that I think that makes Greco less important, I don't at all.

 

Though the highlight tapes for Greco may be the best :).

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Because american freestyle is an adapted Usa folkstyle!

 

The real freestyle wrestling is the Russian and east european style and is very similar to greco roman with sweeps and leg attack and a lot of throws.

 

But the "Russian freestyle" is better than greco for mma training and has a lot of different throws with influence of legs. The russian fighters like khabilov and khabib N training freestyle in Dagestan.

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Because american freestyle is an adapted Usa folkstyle!

 

The real freestyle wrestling is the Russian and east european style and is very similar to greco roman with sweeps and leg attack and a lot of throws.

 

But the "Russian freestyle" is better than greco for mma training and has a lot of different throws with influence of legs. The russian fighters like khabilov and khabib N training freestyle in Dagestan.

 

This is an interesting case for freestyle wrestling servicing as a better setup for MMA. Mat wrestling from folkstyle doesn't really lend itself to ground&pound and particularly not for exposure to submissions. It might be better from counter-intuitive reasons that wrestlers don't bring folkstyle mat tendencies to MMA.

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Freestyle is a stan stand up oriented wrestling style and in mma you train Wrestling for stand up grappling (take downs, throws, balance etc) not ground game. The ground game for mma is called Grappling nogi.

If you want to dictate were the fight goes you must train stand up wrestling and freestyle is the best style. Another aspect are the high amplitude throws and ko your opponent. See the khabilov's suplex.

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This is an interesting case for freestyle wrestling servicing as a better setup for MMA. Mat wrestling from folkstyle doesn't really lend itself to ground&pound and particularly not for exposure to submissions. It might be better from counter-intuitive reasons that wrestlers don't bring folkstyle mat tendencies to MMA.

 

Dude, coming from experience, there is no greater tool to have on the ground than folkstyle mat control. It takes the longest to master and has presents immediate and powerful problems for any style of fighter trapped underneath. There is nothing else that lends it's self to GnP more than folkstyle mat control. If you look at the vast majority of UFC fighters fighting in a main event world championship bout, they are coming from a folkstyle background and they use it effectively. I would say it is above 75% in all time world championship contestants.

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There is nothing more gay than ground fighting in MMA. Two guys sitting one on top of another for a long time and what looks like hugging and kissing each other without a clear purpose.

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Just realized that you have to be logged in to not see people that you have put on your banned list....unfortunately I was looking at this thread as a guest and had to see tripsters post....uggg!! How can this guy go away???

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All the most successful mma fighters with wrestling backgrounds have a major Freestyle/Greco background . See Jon Jones Dan Henderson Couture Askren Cormier Edgar Cruz GSP Coleman Severn Lawal and many others. Wrestling for MMA is stand up wrestling not mat wrestling. If you have experience in collegiate wrestling you can have a vantage in groun game i agree but MMA wrestling is based on freestyle.

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Indeed how can you use folkstyle skills on the ground in MMA when one guy is usually on his back which is end game in folkstyle?

 

You know there are no points in MMA for tilting or pinning or even riding.

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Because in folkstyle par terre they don't go belly down and flatten out. In folkstyle you learn to control with your legs, and maybe one or two arms. Jijitsu wants you on your back so they can get a submission lock. Folksyle wrestlers are used to keeping their weight on the opponent, so they have a hand free to apply a pin hold. Or in MMA they can use the free hands to strike with.

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All the most successful mma fighters with wrestling backgrounds have a major Freestyle/Greco background . See Jon Jones Dan Henderson Couture Askren Cormier Edgar Cruz GSP Coleman Severn Lawal and many others. Wrestling for MMA is stand up wrestling not mat wrestling. If you have experience in collegiate wrestling you can have a vantage in groun game i agree but MMA wrestling is based on freestyle.

 

Of all the guys you mentioned above, every single one of them minus GSP who has zero wrestling matches, have spent more time wrestling collegiate than international. Every single one. Hell, 7/11 of them didnt even compete in freestyle.

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All the most successful mma fighters with wrestling backgrounds have a major Freestyle/Greco background . See Jon Jones Dan Henderson Couture Askren Cormier Edgar Cruz GSP Coleman Severn Lawal and many others. Wrestling for MMA is stand up wrestling not mat wrestling. If you have experience in collegiate wrestling you can have a vantage in groun game i agree but MMA wrestling is based on freestyle.

 

Of all the guys you mentioned above, every single one of them minus GSP who has zero wrestling matches, have spent more time wrestling collegiate than international. Every single one. Hell, 7/11 of them didnt even compete in freestyle.

 

I counted 5. Henderson, Couture, Cruz, Edgar, and Jones. 6 if you count GSP. Askren, Olympian. Severn, world team member. Cormier, Olympian. Lawal, world team member. Coleman, world medalist and Olympian.

 

Henderson spent more time competing internationally than he did in college. At ASU he was above average and was a 2x NQ but was only at ASU for a few years and made the Olympic team while he was here. Couture spent years wrestling internationally before he set foot on the mat in college. Cruz never wrestled in college either. Most of the guys on that list, except for a few, spent much more time internationally than they did in college.

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I think US wrestlers were proficient throwers until the rule changes in the mid/late 80's. Randy Lewis, Nate Carr, Kenny Monday Metzgar and many others could all throw. I think the US wrestlers and coaches got away from teaching throws as the rules made the probability to throw very small. Rules in 70's to late 80's made you keep your hips present or forward, could not block opponents hips, you could not back up etc...you got launched if you got into bad position...no doubt. That is why freestyle used to give folkstylers a competitive advantage over non-FS wrestlers. Now you can get in bad position and block out and back up. I think the US wrestlers concentrated on higher percentage scoring opportunities.

Jordan Burroughs did not wrestle FS in HS and college. I wonder if he has ever even drilled or learned any throws at all leading to his Olympic and World gold medals. I would bet he has no or very little time working on any throws and why should he.

We see so few throws now that the current audience in USA get so excited and want every throw scored 5, much like the Dake throw on Burroughs. Guys like BigApple, Lewboo, Badgermon and Brinzer will be able to confirm or rip apart my theory!

Olddirty - did you wrestle under the rules of late 70's to mid 80's or was that before your time?

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I counted 5. Henderson, Couture, Cruz, Edgar, and Jones. 6 if you count GSP. Askren, Olympian. Severn, world team member. Cormier, Olympian. Lawal, world team member. Coleman, world medalist and Olympian.

 

Henderson spent more time competing internationally than he did in college. At ASU he was above average and was a 2x NQ but was only at ASU for a few years and made the Olympic team while he was here. Couture spent years wrestling internationally before he set foot on the mat in college. Cruz never wrestled in college either. Most of the guys on that list, except for a few, spent much more time internationally than they did in college.

 

I said they wrestled collegiate more than international. As you know, you dont have to wrestle in college to wrestle collegiate style. All of those guys, including Henderson who wrestled from age 5-21 in collegiate style, wrestled more collegiate than international.

 

As for counting 5/11, Guys not making a name in freestyle are: Henderson, Couture, Cruz, Edgar, Jones, GSP, and Severn wrestled both styles.

 

JSTOCK, I wrestled under the current rules but I basically made my game off of Nate Carr. I still watch, on average, 2-3 Carr matches a week, all year.

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