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Marstellar to PSU

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The Carr thing you have to take with a grain of salt because of the Weight Class. The rest of his career, like at Kentucky when he got in a regular weight class, doesn't indicate that he was at a Kolat or Schultz level. Making the Olympics is a crazy accomplishment, but doing it at 114 is not the same as 163 or whatever.

 

Going to the other extreme, you can definitely make a case for Mocco among the best handful of HS wrestlers ever. To me a litmus test is what they did right away in college, particularly if they competed as a true freshman. I could be wrong, but wasn't Mocco the first HS heavyweight to win 4 titles (National Prep in his case?) And then losing in the NCAA finals in OT as a true freshman.

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But for the sake of argument, at age 16, Kolat won the Cadet World Championships. Marstellar, at age 17, took 5th. They're not comparable. Again, it's not an insult to say someone isn't as good in high school as Cary Kolat. He's the greatest high school wrestler ever. Marstellar is fantastic, but he's not as good as Kolat, and there is nothing in his resume that says he is, other than the desire of current fans to always declare the "newest" thing as the "best" thing.

Only disagreement is with characterizing Kolat, singularly, as the greatest HS wrestler ever. Jimmy Carr 1972 (FS Olympian) and Dave Schultz (silver in Tiblisi [top US placer that year] and US open champ) have HS credentials that aren't overshadowed by anyone.

 

Those are certainly achievements that deserve special mention, especially Dave Schultz's, but I still agree with Vak that Kolat was the best HS wrestler ever. It's like calling Cael the best college wrestler ever. Was he better than John Smith, who achieved more internationally while still in college? No, Cael never reached Smith's level while in college. But he had the better career, all things considered.

 

The salient point in this discussion, though, is that Marsteller just isn't in the same conversation. He doesn't have the senior-level pedigree, no matter how you look at it. Is he a stud of the highest order? No question. He's one of a handful of guys who, barring some crazy upset in the coming year, stand above 99.9% of all HS wrestlers. But there is some disagreement as to whether he's even the best HS wrestler in his weight class this year, since some would give the nod to Bo Jordan (not saying I would, just that those who would have a point).

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But for the sake of argument, at age 16, Kolat won the Cadet World Championships. Marstellar, at age 17, took 5th. They're not comparable. Again, it's not an insult to say someone isn't as good in high school as Cary Kolat. He's the greatest high school wrestler ever. Marstellar is fantastic, but he's not as good as Kolat, and there is nothing in his resume that says he is, other than the desire of current fans to always declare the "newest" thing as the "best" thing.

Only disagreement is with characterizing Kolat, singularly, as the greatest HS wrestler ever. Jimmy Carr 1972 (FS Olympian) and Dave Schultz (silver in Tiblisi [top US placer that year] and US open champ) have HS credentials that aren't overshadowed by anyone.

 

Those are certainly achievements that deserve special mention, especially Dave Schultz's, but I still agree with Vak that Kolat was the best HS wrestler ever. It's like calling Cael the best college wrestler ever. Was he better than John Smith, who achieved more internationally while still in college? No, Cael never reached Smith's level while in college. But he had the better career, all things considered.

 

The salient point in this discussion, though, is that Marsteller just isn't in the same conversation. He doesn't have the senior-level pedigree, no matter how you look at it. Is he a stud of the highest order? No question. He's one of a handful of guys who, barring some crazy upset in the coming year, stand above 99.9% of all HS wrestlers. But there is some disagreement as to whether he's even the best HS wrestler in his weight class this year, since some would give the nod to Bo Jordan (not saying I would, just that those who would have a point).

 

Also, factor in the fact that the HS ranks now are probably better "skill wise" in today's climate then back in Kolat's day ... Kolat was great, and I think his ranking #1 IMO as the best HS'r is warranted. YET, we need to also watch these younger guys, as they certainly have a higher level of competition day in and day out. Some of the major HS tournaments are just beastly !!

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Schultz placing at Tblisi while in HS is sick. Put CM in a top senior event right now, and he gets run over. Put him on the mat with Dake or JB or Howe...it's not pretty.

 

 

Is this because some high level High School wrestlers now a days are at the level of Collegiate wrestlers in the early 80's-90's? Dake, JB, and Howe are all physical specimens. Flip time periods, Take the current Marstellar and put him in Kolat's era, does he do as well? Take Kolat put him in Marstellars era, does he do as well?

 

Alot of factors play into this......Multi sport athletes back in the day vs Athletes specializing in a sport by 6th grade.

 

Discuss..........

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[o rd.

 

Johnson did everything you said, but not with nearly the same credentials as what Kolat did.

 

 

Mike Johnson was not the only 4 time, undefeated, one class PA champ. Jerry Maurey did it for Clearfield HS from 1947-1950 (67-0-0) and Jim Conklin did it for Waynesburg from 1940-43 (70-0-1)

 

 

..studs. Coal mining and wrestling. Love it.

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Playing Devils Advocate a little...but you can't pretend that the Bono match didn't happen for Kolat. Kolat tied a HS kid 4-4. Yes, Bono is/was a stud, but this is HS vs HS both as seniors and it was a tie. If you are truly the absolute greatest HS wrestler of all time, are you tying another HS kid your senior year? Was Mocco or Hahn tying someone? Schultz? Even David Taylor?

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But for the sake of argument, at age 16, Kolat won the Cadet World Championships. Marstellar, at age 17, took 5th. They're not comparable. Again, it's not an insult to say someone isn't as good in high school as Cary Kolat. He's the greatest high school wrestler ever. Marstellar is fantastic, but he's not as good as Kolat, and there is nothing in his resume that says he is, other than the desire of current fans to always declare the "newest" thing as the "best" thing.

Only disagreement is with characterizing Kolat, singularly, as the greatest HS wrestler ever. Jimmy Carr 1972 (FS Olympian) and Dave Schultz (silver in Tiblisi [top US placer that year] and US open champ) have HS credentials that aren't overshadowed by anyone.

 

Those are certainly achievements that deserve special mention, especially Dave Schultz's, but I still agree with Vak that Kolat was the best HS wrestler ever. It's like calling Cael the best college wrestler ever. Was he better than John Smith, who achieved more internationally while still in college? No, Cael never reached Smith's level while in college. But he had the better career, all things considered.

 

The salient point in this discussion, though, is that Marsteller just isn't in the same conversation. He doesn't have the senior-level pedigree, no matter how you look at it. Is he a stud of the highest order? No question. He's one of a handful of guys who, barring some crazy upset in the coming year, stand above 99.9% of all HS wrestlers. But there is some disagreement as to whether he's even the best HS wrestler in his weight class this year, since some would give the nod to Bo Jordan (not saying I would, just that those who would have a point).

HS senior Shultz pinned 2X champ and OW Yagla at Great Plains. Pinned way through single division state championships except 12-1 final...up two weights. (Forgot to mention Pan Am GR Gold before)

Again, my disagreement was with Kolat being labeled as THE best. I don't think Carr or Schultz were better. I don't think it's possible to definitively know who the best is/was.

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Playing Devils Advocate a little...but you can't pretend that the Bono match didn't happen for Kolat. Kolat tied a HS kid 4-4. Yes, Bono is/was a stud, but this is HS vs HS both as seniors and it was a tie. If you are truly the absolute greatest HS wrestler of all time, are you tying another HS kid your senior year? Was Mocco or Hahn tying someone? Schultz? Even David Taylor?

 

It was the Dapper Dan, where Bono came from at least one weight up with huge weight allowances. Yes, it happened. I've used it in discussion about Kolat before, but there are mitigating factors surrounding it.

 

ccrider,

 

I do think it's fair to talk about Carr and Schultz in the discussion, but both guys weren't nearly as distinguished for their overall careers as Kolat was, on top of the senior level accomplishments.

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Going to the other extreme, you can definitely make a case for Mocco among the best handful of HS wrestlers ever. To me a litmus test is what they did right away in college, particularly if they competed as a true freshman. I could be wrong, but wasn't Mocco the first HS heavyweight to win 4 titles (National Prep in his case?) And then losing in the NCAA finals in OT as a true freshman.

 

not trying to take anything away from mocco, but he was 20 years old when he placed second as a "true" freshman. so his true freshman year is someone else's redshirt sophomore season.

 

no matter how you slice it mocco is a stud and i loved watching him compete, but when measuring success among peer groups, i'd start with age rather than grade or eligibility.

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Mocco was 1 year "old" for his grade, and maybe that was a factor in some of his success. With that said, a lot of the guys who are "old" wind up flopping in college because their credentials were inflated via being older. (See pretty much every guy ever from Brandon or Apple Valley.) If I were a college coach, I'd be less inclined to recruit the "old" guy since so many of them do bust at the next level. But clearly that wasn't the case with Mocco. And even if he was the age of a sophomore when he was winning national titles in HS as a freshman, it's still pretty sick for a sophomore to be winning national titles. Mocco was probably still younger than Kolat when they won their first NCAA titles.

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Mocco was 1 year "old" for his grade, and maybe that was a factor in some of his success. With that said, a lot of the guys who are "old" wind up flopping in college because their credentials were inflated via being older. (See pretty much every guy ever from Brandon or Apple Valley.) If I were a college coach, I'd be less inclined to recruit the "old" guy since so many of them do bust at the next level. But clearly that wasn't the case with Mocco. And even if he was the age of a sophomore when he was winning national titles in HS as a freshman, it's still pretty sick for a sophomore to be winning national titles. Mocco was probably still younger than Kolat when they won their first NCAA titles.

 

 

...if Mocco had a decent leg attack he would have been virtually unbeatable.

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Also, factor in the fact that the HS ranks now are probably better "skill wise" in today's climate then back in Kolat's day ... Kolat was great, and I think his ranking #1 IMO as the best HS'r is warranted. YET, we need to also watch these younger guys, as they certainly have a higher level of competition day in and day out. Some of the major HS tournaments are just beastly !!

BS

Techniques Kolat used have now been banned. Google: Kolat backflip. And he does it in the PA final.

It's not like he/they wrestled during the revolutionary war (and would that disqualify them?).

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Playing Devils Advocate a little...but you can't pretend that the Bono match didn't happen for Kolat. Kolat tied a HS kid 4-4. Yes, Bono is/was a stud, but this is HS vs HS both as seniors and it was a tie. If you are truly the absolute greatest HS wrestler of all time, are you tying another HS kid your senior year? Was Mocco or Hahn tying someone? Schultz? Even David Taylor?

 

It was the Dapper Dan, where Bono came from at least one weight up with huge weight allowances. Yes, it happened. I've used it in discussion about Kolat before, but there are mitigating factors surrounding it.

 

ccrider,

 

I do think it's fair to talk about Carr and Schultz in the discussion, but both guys weren't nearly as distinguished for their overall careers as Kolat was, on top of the senior level accomplishments.

Totally agree. Defination of "best in HS" is the Q. If its overall career-Kolat. If single year achievements-Schultz. If winning a place on the most important team-Carr (1972 Olympic team was perhaps our best ever [and there is that nebulous label again :) ]).

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Playing Devils Advocate a little...but you can't pretend that the Bono match didn't happen for Kolat. Kolat tied a HS kid 4-4. Yes, Bono is/was a stud, but this is HS vs HS both as seniors and it was a tie. If you are truly the absolute greatest HS wrestler of all time, are you tying another HS kid your senior year? Was Mocco or Hahn tying someone? Schultz? Even David Taylor?

 

It was the Dapper Dan, where Bono came from at least one weight up with huge weight allowances. Yes, it happened. I've used it in discussion about Kolat before, but there are mitigating factors surrounding it.

 

ccrider,

 

I do think it's fair to talk about Carr and Schultz in the discussion, but both guys weren't nearly as distinguished for their overall careers as Kolat was, on top of the senior level accomplishments.

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Guest Hammerlock3

It leads to them because the PA homers who have no idea what they are talking about are in a big hurry to make ludicrous comparisons.

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But for the sake of argument, at age 16, Kolat won the Cadet World Championships. Marstellar, at age 17, took 5th. They're not comparable. Again, it's not an insult to say someone isn't as good in high school as Cary Kolat. He's the greatest high school wrestler ever. Marstellar is fantastic, but he's not as good as Kolat, and there is nothing in his resume that says he is, other than the desire of current fans to always declare the "newest" thing as the "best" thing.

Only disagreement is with characterizing Kolat, singularly, as the greatest HS wrestler ever. Jimmy Carr 1972 (FS Olympian) and Dave Schultz (silver in Tiblisi [top US placer that year] and US open champ) have HS credentials that aren't overshadowed by anyone.

 

I think both of the above posts have it about right, but a few comments.

 

The only quarrel I'd have with Vak's posts is his use of the Cadet worlds comparison (1st v 5th). I don't think that tells us anything. From the video, Marsteller looked like the clearly superior wrestler in his semifinal match at Cadet worlds until he dislocated his elbow (it was nasty), defaulting him to 5th, but I frankly think he would have won... or at least placed the top 2.

 

But even if Marstellar had won, he still doesn't have the credentials (at least not yet) to be equated to Kolat. What made Kolat stand out was not his Cadet world title (which was nice, but isn't unprecedented for a high schooler), but rather his consistently high placements at college and senior level events during his high school tenure. That is what Marstellar lacks. It is largely not his fault, as the idiotic NCAA cut off eligiability for high schoolers to compete in open tournaments after Chance's 8th grade year, but even so -- for all his wins and obvious talent, Chance cannot point to a single notable win against a senior-level or even college-aged opponent. The only recent tournament in which Chance competed which featured non-high schoolers was FILA Juniors last year, and Chance went 0-2. Maybe he was sick, I don't know, but I don't care either -- the fact remains that the only way to distinguish the many scores of high schoolers that had undefeated careers is to look how they fared against older opponents. Chance just does not have that credential. I wish he had competed in FILA Junior World Team Trials last month, as there were lots of great 163lbers there and we'd have had lots of grist to make the comparison. But he was not there, so we're left with a dearth of evidence.

 

I'm also on board with looking at Kolat and Schultz as the most distinguished high schoolers thus far. Carr too, but the lack of competition at his lower weight offsets somewhat the significance of his accomplishment in making the Olympic team.

 

Last comment: The other high schooler to watch as these guys enter their senior year is Kyle Snyder. He did make the Junior World Team last month, and though he didn't have to beat anyone of note to get there, to my eyes he looks like the real deal. I really like his odds to walk away with a medal at Jr Worlds, and when he does, I think it will be very fair to argue that his high school career is superior to Marstellar's (though I think Marsteller is the real deal too). I hope both of these guys dip their toe into some senior-level freestlyle events next year too, so that they can give themselves and us a better sense of where they stand in the high school GOAT conversation.

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Regarding Cadet Worlds, Zain Retherford won it last summer.

 

Does that make his high school age career better than his soon to be teammate Marsteller's?

 

Comparisons to Kolat or not, there's no class of 2014 kid I'd rather see headed to Penn State than Chance Marsteller (although I do like that Nick Nevills has committed, too!).

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But for the sake of argument, at age 16, Kolat won the Cadet World Championships. Marstellar, at age 17, took 5th. They're not comparable. Again, it's not an insult to say someone isn't as good in high school as Cary Kolat. He's the greatest high school wrestler ever. Marstellar is fantastic, but he's not as good as Kolat, and there is nothing in his resume that says he is, other than the desire of current fans to always declare the "newest" thing as the "best" thing.

Only disagreement is with characterizing Kolat, singularly, as the greatest HS wrestler ever. Jimmy Carr 1972 (FS Olympian) and Dave Schultz (silver in Tiblisi [top US placer that year] and US open champ) have HS credentials that aren't overshadowed by anyone.

 

I think both of the above posts have it about right, but a few comments.

 

The only quarrel I'd have with Vak's posts is his use of the Cadet worlds comparison (1st v 5th). I don't think that tells us anything. From the video, Marsteller looked like the clearly superior wrestler in his semifinal match at Cadet worlds until he dislocated his elbow (it was nasty), defaulting him to 5th, but I frankly think he would have won... or at least placed the top 2.

 

But even if Marstellar had won, he still doesn't have the credentials (at least not yet) to be equated to Kolat. What made Kolat stand out was not his Cadet world title (which was nice, but isn't unprecedented for a high schooler), but rather his consistently high placements at college and senior level events during his high school tenure. That is what Marstellar lacks. It is largely not his fault, as the idiotic NCAA cut off eligiability for high schoolers to compete in open tournaments after Chance's 8th grade year, but even so -- for all his wins and obvious talent, Chance cannot point to a single notable win against a senior-level or even college-aged opponent. The only recent tournament in which Chance competed which featured non-high schoolers was FILA Juniors last year, and Chance went 0-2. Maybe he was sick, I don't know, but I don't care either -- the fact remains that the only way to distinguish the many scores of high schoolers that had undefeated careers is to look how they fared against older opponents. Chance just does not have that credential. I wish he had competed in FILA Junior World Team Trials last month, as there were lots of great 163lbers there and we'd have had lots of grist to make the comparison. But he was not there, so we're left with a dearth of evidence.

 

I'm also on board with looking at Kolat and Schultz as the most distinguished high schoolers thus far. Carr too, but the lack of competition at his lower weight offsets somewhat the significance of his accomplishment in making the Olympic team.

 

Last comment: The other high schooler to watch as these guys enter their senior year is Kyle Snyder. He did make the Junior World Team last month, and though he didn't have to beat anyone of note to get there, to my eyes he looks like the real deal. I really like his odds to walk away with a medal at Jr Worlds, and when he does, I think it will be very fair to argue that his high school career is superior to Marstellar's (though I think Marsteller is the real deal too). I hope both of these guys dip their toe into some senior-level freestlyle events next year too, so that they can give themselves and us a better sense of where they stand in the high school GOAT conversation.

 

 

Except I believe Kyle Snyder is not competing his Senior Year and will be at the OTC correct? Also Snyder doesnt have PA state titles and his weight is far less competitive then Chance's..............

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Regarding Cadet Worlds, Zain Retherford won it last summer.

 

Does that make his high school age career better than his soon to be teammate Marsteller's?

 

Comparisons to Kolat or not, there's no class of 2014 kid I'd rather see headed to Penn State than Chance Marsteller (although I do like that Nick Nevills has committed, too!).

 

...what? Nobody anywhere has said that winning Cadet Worlds is the definitive statement on who had a better career in high school. Retherford has had a great career, but his resume pales before Chance's. We were comparing CHance to Kolat, and since somebody dismissed the difference between 1-2 at the Nittany Lion Open and 3rd at the Midland due to an age difference, I simply gave an equal age example.

 

And to be clear on an earlier point, I never said that Cary is better than Chance because Cary took 3rd at the Midlands and Chance went 1-2 at the NIttany Lion Open. I said that it's ridiculous to compare the two, because of the level of competition. Cary's accomplishment was MUCH greater than Chance's. I wasn't the one who made the initial comparison, I'm just responding to the ridiculousness of it.

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Except I believe Kyle Snyder is not competing his Senior Year and will be at the OTC correct? Also Snyder doesnt have PA state titles and his weight is far less competitive then Chance's..............

His weight not being as competitive is your best point. It's also true that PA States trumps National Preps, though Snyder has beaten nationally ranked opponents every single year to win that tournament. He's won Ironman 2x and Beast 3x against nationally ranked opponents, putting up bonus points in every match this year. Haines is on track to be a 4x PA State Champ and Snyder majored him at Powerade. As a sophomore, he defeated 3x SC John Rizzo. I'd say that his schedule is equally (if not more) challenging than your average PA wrestler because private school Good Counsel is able to travel so much. If he had losses on his record with that schedule than PA tournament being tougher would be a more relevant separator.

 

Snyder will be at the OTC next season, if he has wins over accomplished NCAA wrestlers (even in freestyle) during that time then it will be a stronger case than winning a 4th state title.

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Where is the evidence that Chance's weight class is tougher than Snyders? There have been a lot more 3-4 time state champs in the weights that Chance has competed in compared to Snyder. As someone else said, Haines is on pace to be a 4x state champ and Snyder blew him off the mat.

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Can we all agree that with the recent recruits of Retherford, Nevills, and Marsteller and the studs coming off RS and the super talent that is currently in place that Penn State is going to rule the collegiate mat for years to come? Can I get an Amen to that?

 

Hail to Cael and his staff!

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