Thomas Haines

[VakAttack 3,966]

I am kind of surprised and potentially disappointed that Haines backed out. I write potentially because I do not know the dollar amounts and details. Every weight at PSU is deep. Every kid has to battle for his spot, potentially ride the pine or redshirt. I would rather see Haines come in with a chip on his shoulder with the attitude that he would keep Nevills on the bench and take any money he was getting. Attitude is huge in college.

Now - this post may be pre-mature since I don't have any real details but this is the first reaction based on info provided on themat forum.

Haines is a blast to watch, I hope he ends up well.

 

This is ridiculous to be disappointed in a kid. Especially at HWT, where he doesn't have the option of bumping to get in the lineup. Everyone likes to be "deep", but if they sign another top 5 guy at your weight class and you only have the one weight option, I understand feeling a little betrayed and moving on, even though I understand, as an impartial viewer, Cael going after Nevills if he feels Nevills is the better guy.

[silver-medal 670]

Another possibility...Haines may have committed to PSU for small dollars as it was his desire to wrestle for Cael. Then Cael nabs Nevills. He has reason to be ticked as well as feel he can get a larger scholarship from another program.

[jstock 125]

Vac- what body fat pct. would you guess the average Hwt maintains compared to the other weights? Would you guess 7 to 10 pct? If Haines had 20 pct body fat at HWT would the drop to 10 to 15 pct body fat be too much for him to go down if he could not beat out Nevills?

[VakAttack 3,966]

Vac- what body fat pct. would you guess the average Hwt maintains compared to the other weights? Would you guess 7 to 10 pct? If Haines had 20 pct body fat at HWT would the drop to 10 to 15 pct body fat be too much for him to go down if he could not beat out Nevills?

 

I have no idea. Do you? What are you asking here? If I think Haines should be willing to drop 40 pounds to get to 197 if he bulks up/outgrows the weight?

[jstock 125]

Just looking at Hains build, I would bet he could maintain 197 but I have to stop here, it's too tough to comment further without knowing any of the $, scholarship details and what may have or may not have been promised. I have too much respect for a 3x and probable 4x PA state champ to run my mouth without any details. I will wish T Haines well and will root for the Pa kid wherever he ends up.

[skikayaker 93]

It's always about Risk vs Reward. Nevills posed a risk for Haines to either lose scholarship money with the limited 9.9 that are available, or risk not starting. I wouldn't want to be part of that kind of distraction and battle, like the one that Gingrich and Lawson shared. That kind of thing is not fun.

 

Question: With verbal commitments they are obviously easily de-committed and no deals are discussed at this point except to let the recruit know that a scholarship will be available. Of the 9.9 full scholarships available how "can" a team slice up that 9.9 pie? What are some of the common distributions of the 9.9 schollies?

[FATMANROLL 54]

Wrestling coaches try to exhaust all other means of financial support before the commit to giving away athletic aid, Poor and Smart is the best way to get school paid for or have rich parents.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

No question this refelcts poorly on Cael from an integrity standpoint. However, I am in the camp that thinks Cali will be a better college wrestler than Haines.

[TBar1977 4,481]

No question this refelcts poorly on Cael from an integrity standpoint. However, I am in the camp that thinks Cali will be a better college wrestler than Haines.

 

Guillermo, how does this reflect poorly on Cael?

 

Maybe Cael was done recruiting at Hwt. and his phone rings and it is Nevills wanting to come to Penn State. Is Cael supposed to not take that call? What if after Nevills tells Cael he wants to come to Penn State, Cael immediately calls Haines to disclose this brand new information? In this scenario I'd suggest everyone from Nevills, to Haines, to Cael acted completely appropriately.

[TLS62pa 53]

Maryland is actually a great call. Except for the "dominate the ACC part. " First, the heavyweight for NC State is an All American and beat Tony Nelson twice this summer. Second, Maryland is going to the Big 10.

 

Totally agree, with Gwiz being at NC St. But this is three years down the line. Haines still has his senior year, then probably a redshirt year behind Spencer Myers (if he goes to UMD). That would make his redshirt freshman year during Gwiz's senior year. Still gives him 3 years to be king of the ACC, something that used to be a joke that isn't anymore.

[Rameses 0]

Any kid that is heading to College Park to compete in any sport will be fighting for Big 10 titles, not ACC crowns...

 

Rameses

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

No question this refelcts poorly on Cael from an integrity standpoint. However, I am in the camp that thinks Cali will be a better college wrestler than Haines.

 

Guillermo, how does this reflect poorly on Cael?

 

Maybe Cael was done recruiting at Hwt. and his phone rings and it is Nevills wanting to come to Penn State. Is Cael supposed to not take that call? What if after Nevills tells Cael he wants to come to Penn State, Cael immediately calls Haines to disclose this brand new information? In this scenario I'd suggest everyone from Nevills, to Haines, to Cael acted completely appropriately.

 

suggest and what if

 

what if Cael got Haines to commit and decided he wasn't satisfied and kept recruiting heavy. That's just as likely as your scenario- apparently the Haines family agrees.

 

Haines missed 8 months of the recruiting game because he thought he had a commitment from PSU. it isn't like it's 141. no wiggle room

 

PSU is good enough to get away with it for sure.

[TBar1977 4,481]

Guillermo, I think you are making assumptions here. The key thing the Haines family said was that they were surprised. No doubt they were, but that still doesn't mean Cael did anything wrong.

[buf87 84]

If he can't find a home, Iowa State will take him.

[Wire 23]

No question this refelcts poorly on Cael from an integrity standpoint. However, I am in the camp that thinks Cali will be a better college wrestler than Haines.

 

Guillermo, how does this reflect poorly on Cael?

 

Maybe Cael was done recruiting at Hwt. and his phone rings and it is Nevills wanting to come to Penn State. Is Cael supposed to not take that call? What if after Nevills tells Cael he wants to come to Penn State, Cael immediately calls Haines to disclose this brand new information? In this scenario I'd suggest everyone from Nevills, to Haines, to Cael acted completely appropriately.

 

It was a verbal.... Both Cael and Nevilles had a discussion, and came to an verbal agreement. Happens all the time in not only Wrestling, also in football etc ... PLUS, I'm sure Cael covered his bases with regards to more recruiting, and more guys. He is not going to box himself into a corner just over one guy. NOW ... the kid had a decision to make. And they have chosen to look around again. Don't try to tell us that Iowa, Minny,OKState etc .. don't have the same kind of situations, and decisions to make. Haines also was part of the "commitment" and now that he has competition, he starts to shop himself around? It is a two way street for both parties.

[TLS62pa 53]

Any kid that is heading to College Park to compete in any sport will be fighting for Big 10 titles, not ACC crowns...

 

Rameses

 

AHA! Touche... Man I can't believe I neglected that! Well, then I change my stance of "dominating the ACC" to "competing in the big leagues..." with matches against Nevillis, I might add.

[TheTruth 0]

What happened is PSU offered Haines "x" amount of money and Haines Committed... Then PSU landed Nevilles at which time PSU went back to Haines and said we don't have the money that we offered you before. Haines and his family felt slighted and decided to go elsewhere.

 

If you think for a minute it was because of competition in the room you are crazy. This is clearly a case of PSU pulling the money on Haines to give to Nevilles. They got an in-state HWT and felt good about him until they had the opportunity to land someone they felt was better and went for the kid they thought was better even though they already committed money to someone else.

[FATMANROLL 54]

I can almost guarantee that there was no hard dollar amount given to Haines yet because grades, ACT and other factors are going to be a huge part of what the financial package is determined by. Coaches are not going to shell out a full ride when there are other ways to get school paid for.

[grapplefan 2]

What happened is PSU offered Haines "x" amount of money and Haines Committed... Then PSU landed Nevilles at which time PSU went back to Haines and said we don't have the money that we offered you before. Haines and his family felt slighted and decided to go elsewhere.

 

If you think for a minute it was because of competition in the room you are crazy. This is clearly a case of PSU pulling the money on Haines to give to Nevilles. They got an in-state HWT and felt good about him until they had the opportunity to land someone they felt was better and went for the kid they thought was better even though they already committed money to someone else.

If this is true, am I the only one who finds this situation to sound a little less than honorable?

Yes, it's cruel, dog-eat-dog world out there, but if a coach promised me something, and then changed their mind after I committed based on that promise, I would probably feel like someone took advantage of me. I would also use this as motivation to beat the heck out of the guy who took my spot.

 

However, all this board talk is premature, because we don't know the particulars, and we don't know the promises and contingencies. I hope that both of these young men find situations where they can thrive. There are lots of excellent Div I schools who would love to have either of them.

[JerseyJoey 25]

If that is true, it's disgraceful. Even by Penn State standards.

[VakAttack 3,966]

What happened is PSU offered Haines "x" amount of money and Haines Committed... Then PSU landed Nevilles at which time PSU went back to Haines and said we don't have the money that we offered you before. Haines and his family felt slighted and decided to go elsewhere.

 

If you think for a minute it was because of competition in the room you are crazy. This is clearly a case of PSU pulling the money on Haines to give to Nevilles. They got an in-state HWT and felt good about him until they had the opportunity to land someone they felt was better and went for the kid they thought was better even though they already committed money to someone else.

If this is true, am I the only one who finds this situation to sound a little less than honorable?

Yes, it's cruel, dog-eat-dog world out there, but if a coach promised me something, and then changed their mind after I committed based on that promise, I would probably feel like someone took advantage of me. I would also use this as motivation to beat the heck out of the guy who took my spot.

 

However, all this board talk is premature, because we don't know the particulars, and we don't know the promises and contingencies. I hope that both of these young men find situations where they can thrive. There are lots of excellent Div I schools who would love to have either of them.

 

It sucks for Haines, but it happens in college all the time. It happened with Jordan Blanton and Iowa several years ago. It's a verbal agreement, Cael was able to back out, but so was Haines. It undoubtedly sucks for Haines, though, and I'm sure he'd feel pissed. But I understand Cael's side, too.

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

What happened is PSU offered Haines "x" amount of money and Haines Committed... Then PSU landed Nevilles at which time PSU went back to Haines and said we don't have the money that we offered you before. Haines and his family felt slighted and decided to go elsewhere.

 

If you think for a minute it was because of competition in the room you are crazy. This is clearly a case of PSU pulling the money on Haines to give to Nevilles. They got an in-state HWT and felt good about him until they had the opportunity to land someone they felt was better and went for the kid they thought was better even though they already committed money to someone else.

 

Do you have any evidence for this other than your name being "the truth?"

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

I can almost guarantee that there was no hard dollar amount given to Haines yet because grades, ACT and other factors are going to be a huge part of what the financial package is determined by. Coaches are not going to shell out a full ride when there are other ways to get school paid for.

 

While you are right that any wrestling coach worth his salt will first try to get scholarship money from places other than the 9.9 scholarships available for wrestling, exceptional recruits do sometimes get commitments nevertheless, so it very well may be true that Cael mentioned a hard dollar amount. We'll probably never know, and even those close to either party will, at best, be on one side of a he-said-she-said type of argument since there is no written contract to point to for evidence. Some coaches will earmark part of (or, more rarely, all of) a full scholarship from the 9.9 available to get a commitment from an especially strong recruit, and then try to find scholarship money from other places to make the 9.9 go farther. But sometimes, the committed amount needs to come from the 9.9, and if the kid in question is special enough, so be it.

 

Since a verbal commitment is just that, verbal and therefore non-binding, Cael did not literally do anything wrong. So the only question that matters is whether or not he behaved in a manner that Haines deemed honorable and trustworthy. Clearly, Haines felt let down. That's life.

 

Cael's #1 job is to mat the best possible team to win national titles, and if he felt that he had a shot at a better guy, then he was just doing his job in trying to get him on board. He didn't break any rules, even if he might've committed the error of letting his mouth write a check that he couldn't cash in the end. Some harm, but no foul. Obviously, if this type of behavior becomes a pattern, then it'll become a problem with future recruits.

 

It's also totally understandable that a guy who got a commitment from Cael, whom he probably idolized as most HS kids do, is going to feel like he can't trust Cael with his career anymore, especially if it's true that a bunch of money disappeared from the package. I'd probably walk too. No harm, no foul from Haines.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

What happened is PSU offered Haines "x" amount of money and Haines Committed... Then PSU landed Nevilles at which time PSU went back to Haines and said we don't have the money that we offered you before. Haines and his family felt slighted and decided to go elsewhere.

 

If you think for a minute it was because of competition in the room you are crazy. This is clearly a case of PSU pulling the money on Haines to give to Nevilles. They got an in-state HWT and felt good about him until they had the opportunity to land someone they felt was better and went for the kid they thought was better even though they already committed money to someone else.

 

this seems likely

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

What happened is PSU offered Haines "x" amount of money and Haines Committed... Then PSU landed Nevilles at which time PSU went back to Haines and said we don't have the money that we offered you before. Haines and his family felt slighted and decided to go elsewhere.

 

If you think for a minute it was because of competition in the room you are crazy. This is clearly a case of PSU pulling the money on Haines to give to Nevilles. They got an in-state HWT and felt good about him until they had the opportunity to land someone they felt was better and went for the kid they thought was better even though they already committed money to someone else.

 

this seems likely

Or not.