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Football Realignment

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2 hours ago, gowrestle said:

I don’t  think this is going to be a good thing for wrestling. 

 

1 hour ago, BobDole said:
2 hours ago, gowrestle said:

I don’t think this is going to be a good thing for any sport that is not football or basketball. 

 

FIF both of you. 

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2 hours ago, gowrestle said:

I don’t think this is going to be a good thing.

 

1 hour ago, BobDole said:

FIFY
 

 

5 minutes ago, Idaho said:

 

FIF both of you. 

FIF all of yous.  

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It’s bad because it further continues the caste system Olympic/non-revenue athletes are in.

“College sports” to the conference admins, TV execs and national sportswriters means TWO sports. The other thousands of athletes are along for the ride - wrestling is one that doesn’t control its own destiny and that is hard to get ahead of.

Far-flung conferences are bad for sports that aren’t the two “the fans” care about.

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basketball doesn't even move the needle anymore. ACC pinned their hopes on basketball being a differentiator and now they're behind the eight ball. football media rights are all the matters right now. however, basketball is still in a totally different category as all the other sports, it just isn't driving major conference realignment anymore. 

Athletic department budgets are fundamentally broken. every school in the country could sponsor far more varsity programs if they stopped bundling them up with semi pro football and basketball. 

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Additionally, as an example, what happens to BTN scheduling when BTN has to make room (which they will have to) for USC/UCLA men's and women's basketball. That's a minimum of 60 home games per year during the winter season. Likely, this will push some linear duals to digital platforms. 

Further, while it will positively impact the budgets for Big Ten schools as a whole, it will greatly decrease the revenue at a lot of other schools, e.g. Oregon State. Given Title IX requirements, the first sports that will be in jeopardy would be men's Olympic sports. 

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9 minutes ago, mbowlsby said:

Additionally, as an example, what happens to BTN scheduling when BTN has to make room (which they will have to) for USC/UCLA men's and women's basketball. That's a minimum of 60 home games per year during the winter season. Likely, this will push some linear duals to digital platforms. 

Further, while it will positively impact the budgets for Big Ten schools as a whole, it will greatly decrease the revenue at a lot of other schools, e.g. Oregon State. Given Title IX requirements, the first sports that will be in jeopardy would be men's Olympic sports. 

I'm worried about what happens to the T in BTN.  Will they change it to B$N and how do you say that abbreviation?

But also what if the B12 goes for the shark jump, lands Arizona, Arizona St, Oregon & Oregon St can they then start their own Coast to Coast Network (CCN) and become so filthy rich that they buy out the puny sec?  

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1 hour ago, mbowlsby said:

Additionally, as an example, what happens to BTN scheduling when BTN has to make room (which they will have to) for USC/UCLA men's and women's basketball. That's a minimum of 60 home games per year during the winter season. Likely, this will push some linear duals to digital platforms. 

Further, while it will positively impact the budgets for Big Ten schools as a whole, it will greatly decrease the revenue at a lot of other schools, e.g. Oregon State. Given Title IX requirements, the first sports that will be in jeopardy would be men's Olympic sports. 

I think it depends on if they create 2  divisions in the Big Ten (like football), how many games they will play (same or more), how many times they play a team in division and and whole conference,  etc. I think there will have to be some re-arranging of sorts. Will playing all the new teams  take away from out of conference games against elite programs outside the conference or do they simply play 40+ games now?  It may push duals to digital, possibly recorded then played later, etc  unless it's Iowa vs PSU, etc. 

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1 hour ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

basketball doesn't even move the needle anymore. ACC pinned their hopes on basketball being a differentiator and now they're behind the eight ball. football media rights are all the matters right now. however, basketball is still in a totally different category as all the other sports, it just isn't driving major conference realignment anymore. 

Athletic department budgets are fundamentally broken. every school in the country could sponsor far more varsity programs if they stopped bundling them up with semi pro football and basketball. 

Yep.... in 2019 68 out of 350+ D1 mens college programs were profitable. Most profits come from March Madness.  Athletic departments operated at an average 16 million deficit. 

"every school in the country could sponsor far more varsity programs if they stopped bundling them up with semi pro football and basketball" - How so? Aren't most athletic budges dependent upon those programs to make up for losses of the non-revenue sports? How could they sponsor more programs by not bundling them together?  

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30 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Yep.... in 2019 68 out of 350+ D1 mens college programs were profitable. Most profits come from March Madness.  Athletic departments operated at an average 16 million deficit. 

"every school in the country could sponsor far more varsity programs if they stopped bundling them up with semi pro football and basketball" - How so? Aren't most athletic budges dependent upon those programs to make up for losses of the non-revenue sports? How could they sponsor more programs by not bundling them together?  

Because most colleges lose money on football and basketball.   Enough with the farm system for the NBA and NFL while bringing non-students to campus.  What other country panders to this overly large .01% of the population?  Harvard / Yale and Rutgers/ Princeton would be just as exciting to the student body without always getting bigger, more expensive, and in many cases more criminality 

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2 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

basketball doesn't even move the needle anymore. ACC pinned their hopes on basketball being a differentiator and now they're behind the eight ball. football media rights are all the matters right now. however, basketball is still in a totally different category as all the other sports, it just isn't driving major conference realignment anymore. 

Athletic department budgets are fundamentally broken. every school in the country could sponsor far more varsity programs if they stopped bundling them up with semi pro football and basketball. 

Where you see basketball moving the needle is with schools that aren't in the FBS game. You've seen a ton of movement in the mid-major conferences to try to create more 2-3 bid leagues to get those units from March Madness, which still provides nominal funding to teams/conferences that make the show. Football plays a role there too, as we've seen with Lamar, Incarnate Word and other Texas schools joining, then leaving the WAC for the Southland. 

The KenPom/NET, etc. rankings are dictating scheduling, such as the close to home situation where VCU no longer scheduling that school in Norfolk because it'll kill their rating. 

The P5 moves are predicated upon those rights fees, as you point out. The G5 and below (with 32 D1 all-sports conferences) are still chasing those March Madness units. 

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1 hour ago, Idaho said:

How so? Aren't most athletic budges dependent upon those programs to make up for losses of the non-revenue sports? How could they sponsor more programs by not bundling them together?  

every college department is a loss leader. they make it up in tuition and creating alumni that donate later in life. DIII schools sponsor tons of sport and add zero revenue from football, basketball or any other sport. D1 schools just decided to bundle all their sports together and then divert money that should go to other sports to football or basketball, so they use money as an excuse to cut other sports. its cowardly imo. 

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No matter what conferences and moves come about we still have no top level NCAA Football champion.

Nebraska, Alabama, Oklahoma, Notre Dame and the ohters have never won an NCAA Championship in football. There isn't one.

The current NCAA champion in football is North Dakota State - the highest level that actually has an NCAA sanctioned title and tournament.

 

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1 hour ago, TFBJR said:

Because most colleges lose money on football and basketball.   Enough with the farm system for the NBA and NFL while bringing non-students to campus.  What other country panders to this overly large .01% of the population?  Harvard / Yale and Rutgers/ Princeton would be just as exciting to the student body without always getting bigger, more expensive, and in many cases more criminality 

Some stats from Sportico: 

Pre pandemic in 18-19 - 57 of 106 D1 programs made a profit - 6 basically broke even -  23 teams with wrestling made a profit

20-21 - 48 of the 105 D1 college football teams made a profit - 6 broke even. - 22 teams with wrestling made profit

I expect this year it will increase due to no restrictions (at least as of now).

With Oklahoma making a 50 million profit (not revenue) I am assuming the profit is distributed to the general athletic department and then distributed from there???? Are improvements and "state of the art" upgrades part of the budget/expenditures or come out of the profit of the program??? 

On a separate but related note, It would be interesting to see a budget sheet as to what qualifies as an "expense" for the program for a team like Ohio State to lost 300k in a season. 

 

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12 hours ago, Casper said:

No matter what conferences and moves come about we still have no top level NCAA Football champion.

Nebraska, Alabama, Oklahoma, Notre Dame and the ohters have never won an NCAA Championship in football. There isn't one.

The current NCAA champion in football is North Dakota State - the highest level that actually has an NCAA sanctioned title and tournament.

 

Wait. Hasn't there been a D1 champ in football for the last 5 years or so (even if the camp was only "mythical," as they said, before that)?

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11 hours ago, Idaho said:

Some stats from Sportico: 

Pre pandemic in 18-19 - 57 of 106 D1 programs made a profit - 6 basically broke even -  23 teams with wrestling made a profit

20-21 - 48 of the 105 D1 college football teams made a profit - 6 broke even. - 22 teams with wrestling made profit

I expect this year it will increase due to no restrictions (at least as of now).

With Oklahoma making a 50 million profit (not revenue) I am assuming the profit is distributed to the general athletic department and then distributed from there???? Are improvements and "state of the art" upgrades part of the budget/expenditures or come out of the profit of the program??? 

On a separate but related note, It would be interesting to see a budget sheet as to what qualifies as an "expense" for the program for a team like Ohio State to lost 300k in a season. 

 

There seems to be some dispute as to how many programs are profitable? And when you say "X teams with wrestling made a profit" you really mean "23 PROGRAMS with wrestling TEAMS made a profit." Isn't that right? 

Meanwhile, do you know if any wrestling teams made a profit? PSU would be most likely, is my guess. But is PSU even profitable? Iowa? Anyone else? Does anyone know?

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14 hours ago, TFBJR said:

Because most colleges lose money on football and basketball.   Enough with the farm system for the NBA and NFL while bringing non-students to campus.  What other country panders to this overly large .01% of the population?  Harvard / Yale and Rutgers/ Princeton would be just as exciting to the student body without always getting bigger, more expensive, and in many cases more criminality 

Yep.  UCLA and USC joining the Big Ten and making a coast to coast "conference" just makes it official for once and for all, all pretense dropped. 

The college sports bus is being driven by things that have nothing to do with the purpose of the institution of higher learning. D1 college football is a horrifyingly dangerous sport that ruins a high number of its participants' health.  It trumps academics and even law and order on campuses. And all the decisions are driven by money.  

Sports are supposed to be part of, and in service of, the fabric of education.  Obviously that doesn't work out in a perfect ivory tower way 100% of the time in practice.  But outside of football and basketball, there is at least something resembling a balance and a sense that the sports are not above the school.

The best decision ever made by a university administration was when the University of Chicago closed down its big time football program altogether because it didn't want the tail wagging the dog anymore. This protected the school and kept it consistent with its mission.  

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17 hours ago, Idaho said:

Some stats from Sportico: 

Pre pandemic in 18-19 - 57 of 106 D1 programs made a profit - 6 basically broke even -  23 teams with wrestling made a profit

20-21 - 48 of the 105 D1 college football teams made a profit - 6 broke even. - 22 teams with wrestling made profit

I expect this year it will increase due to no restrictions (at least as of now).

With Oklahoma making a 50 million profit (not revenue) I am assuming the profit is distributed to the general athletic department and then distributed from there???? Are improvements and "state of the art" upgrades part of the budget/expenditures or come out of the profit of the program??? 

On a separate but related note, It would be interesting to see a budget sheet as to what qualifies as an "expense" for the program for a team like Ohio State to lost 300k in a season. 

 

I don't know where the rumor started that Power 5 football teams lose money when it's publicly known they are getting tens of millions per year for their TV contracts and don't pay their athletes. I just know i've seen it mindlessly repeated on this forum, as if the athletic directors can't do math.  There's no way Ohio State didn't actually profit on operating costs on their football team.  Maybe they wrote off the cost of a stadium or locker room renovation as part of their football budget for that year.  Their revenue has to be around 100 million, they pay probably 4-5 million max in scholarships/housing/stipend. The coaches are making maybe another 20 million max.  They spent 5 million on travel. 

19 hours ago, TFBJR said:

Because most colleges lose money on football and basketball.   Enough with the farm system for the NBA and NFL while bringing non-students to campus.  What other country panders to this overly large .01% of the population?  Harvard / Yale and Rutgers/ Princeton would be just as exciting to the student body without always getting bigger, more expensive, and in many cases more criminality 

Have you ever watched a Harvard/Yale game? It's not good football.  While most colleges with football teams lose money, the best wrestling programs happen to also make a ton of money from their football teams.  Some of that money supports the wrestling team by balancing the athletic budget (thereby allowing the wrestling team to have a higher overall budget). If all of a sudden Big 10 NCAA wrestling was getting 1 billion/year TV contracts, would that be a problem? Plus, it's the only way Alabama and Mississippi will ever have professional sports. 

18 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

every college department is a loss leader. they make it up in tuition and creating alumni that donate later in life. DIII schools sponsor tons of sport and add zero revenue from football, basketball or any other sport. D1 schools just decided to bundle all their sports together and then divert money that should go to other sports to football or basketball, so they use money as an excuse to cut other sports. its cowardly imo. 

D1 Football in the power 5 conferences does not lose money.  Money is not being diverted from Ohio State/Penn State wrestling to Ohio State/Penn State football.  In fact, money from these power 5 football programs helps fund the entire athletic department.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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It can be hard to determine what “profit” is for an organization that is not trying to be profitable. In fiscal 2019, Ohio State football did $50 million in ticket sales, $5 million in parking/concessions, and $34 million in broadcast rights. That stuff pays for the other sports. Their total reported football revenue is about $115 million and total football expenses were about $60 million. Other schools don’t make as much money from football and basketball, but at the Power 5 level, those two sports pay the way. Even at a worse football program like Indiana or Kansas, the money from football funds the athletic department.

OSU data here: https://www.scribd.com/document/504400461/FY19-NCAA-Financial-Report-Ohio-State

Many other schools here: https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/

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8 hours ago, NJDan said:

There seems to be some dispute as to how many programs are profitable? And when you say "X teams with wrestling made a profit" you really mean "23 PROGRAMS with wrestling TEAMS made a profit." Isn't that right? 

Meanwhile, do you know if any wrestling teams made a profit? PSU would be most likely, is my guess. But is PSU even profitable? Iowa? Anyone else? Does anyone know?

However you want to say it....23 college football programs that made a profit also offer wrestling at their same institution .... is that better?

 

2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

There's no way Ohio State didn't actually profit on operating costs on their football team.  Maybe they wrote off the cost of a stadium or locker room renovation as part of their football budget for that year.  Their revenue has to be around 100 million, they pay probably 4-5 million max in scholarships/housing/stipend. The coaches are making maybe another 20 million max.  They spent 5 million on travel. 

Yep - Ohio State lost 3 mil in 2021 but their revenue was 42 mil - Michigan in 2020 had an 81 mil profit but lost 300k in 2021?????? How about Texas - over 100 mil profit but would never add wrestling in a state where it is becoming more popular. That's why I asked the question earlier of what exactly goes into a budget - improvements, expansions, etc? I don't see  how you can have an 81 mil swing in one year unless you have some major improvement in the budget rather than as part of a fundraising effort or tax payer based. 

Mens basketball is obviously not as profitable... only 36 were profitable and the profits are not near what football makes.... only 6 women's teams made profit. There's always Buffalo.... whomever is running that department is good - either 0 or $1 profit in every sport. Someone knows how to run a budget. 

https://www.sportico.com/business/commerce/2021/college-sports-finances-database-intercollegiate-1234646029/

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