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sparkywhite

cael did haines dirty?

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I apologize for my negligence of McCauly's thread.

 

What, based on our knowledge should he have done?

 

Well, according to the timeline we have now:

 

1. November 2012: Haines commits in November

2. July 1: Cael contacts Haines, says he'd like to meet in person.

3. July 2: Cael comes to Haines household, tells them it's a bad fit, won't offer any money.

4. July 3: Nevills commits to Penn State, Haines family finds out via the internet

 

I mean, you don't think that's a crappy way to handle a situation with a teenager? I think it was headshuck who pointed out that this was a pretty humiliating experience for a kid.

 

I thought it was implied, though I didn't directly say, that he could have told them they were recruiting someone else rather than feed them a PC line about "bad fit" and then have a higher ranked guy commit a day later.

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Maybe one of the downsides of having FLO and all of these media outlets available now is that situations like these are more visible and able to "humiliate a HS kid". Didn't read the whole article but was Haines officially offered a full ride and is he a graduating senior or entering his senior year? If he's a graduating senior and was offered the ride, its pretty sh**y. Otherwise Cael could have just said we still want you but Nevills is also coming and there's no money for you... and let Haines decide from there. Recruits have been and will be recruited over all the time at major programs. This is just a very publicized example.

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Guest Hammerlock3

yeah poor bubba, he goes from riding the bench to being the most overrated wrestler in history. Sad story.

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Maybe one of the downsides of having FLO and all of these media outlets available now is that situations like these are more visible and able to "humiliate a HS kid". Didn't read the whole article but was Haines officially offered a full ride and is he a graduating senior or entering his senior year? If he's a graduating senior and was offered the ride, its pretty sh**y. Otherwise Cael could have just said we still want you but Nevills is also coming and there's no money for you... and let Haines decide from there. Recruits have been and will be recruited over all the time at major programs. This is just a very publicized example.

 

He's going into his senior year.

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Integrity does not mean never changing your mind. You can call him frivolous if you want.

 

Those of you feigning certainty (acadia) in regards to a situation like this, in which they have no first hand information, and there are a myriad of extenuating circumstances, obviously have an axe to grind.

 

Do you not know how verbal agreements work? Yes, they are not binding, but when a kid verbals and stands by it, he is essentially assuming he has the next 4-5 years of his life figured out and is no longer looking at other places. For an in-state guy as accomplished as Haines is, and who has shown a real desire to be a part of the program, you don't just make a verbal agreement and then back out 8 months later. It's not fair to him or his parents. The lesson learned here that some seem to be ok with is that you shouldn't trust a scholarship offer from Cael until the LOI is signed-whether you want to call that poor integrity or good business sense is up to you.

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Guest Hammerlock3
I apologize for my negligence of McCauly's thread.

 

What, based on our knowledge should he have done?

 

Well, according to the timeline we have now:

 

1. November 2012: Haines commits in November

2. July 1: Cael contacts Haines, says he'd like to meet in person.

3. July 2: Cael comes to Haines household, tells them it's a bad fit, won't offer any money.

4. July 3: Nevills commits to Penn State, Haines family finds out via the internet

 

I mean, you don't think that's a crappy way to handle a situation with a teenager? I think it was headshuck who pointed out that this was a pretty humiliating experience for a kid.

 

I thought it was implied, though I didn't directly say, that he could have told them they were recruiting someone else rather than feed them a PC line about "bad fit" and then have a higher ranked guy commit a day later.

 

 

Is it legal for him to say that?

 

Does the shame of dropping a PC line really overcome the fact that he did it in their house face to face? Would it actually have made Haines feel any better to tell him they caught a bigger fish or fended off any forum locusts?

 

The answer to at least two of those is no, and I suspect three.

 

The Haines aren't upset with why he acted, just that he did.

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Integrity does not mean never changing your mind. You can call him frivolous if you want.

 

Those of you feigning certainty (acadia) in regards to a situation like this, in which they have no first hand information, and there are a myriad of extenuating circumstances, obviously have an axe to grind.

 

Do you not know how verbal agreements work? Yes, they are not binding, but when a kid verbals and stands by it, he is essentially assuming he has the next 4-5 years of his life figured out and is no longer looking at other places. For an in-state guy as accomplished as Haines is, and who has shown a real desire to be a part of the program, you don't just make a verbal agreement and then back out 8 months later. It's not fair to him or his parents. The lesson learned here that some seem to be ok with is that you shouldn't trust a scholarship offer from Cael until the LOI is signed-whether you want to call that poor integrity or good business sense is up to you.

 

This lesson should actually be about all coaches and not just Cael.

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Maybe one of the downsides of having FLO and all of these media outlets available now is that situations like these are more visible and able to "humiliate a HS kid". Didn't read the whole article but was Haines officially offered a full ride and is he a graduating senior or entering his senior year? If he's a graduating senior and was offered the ride, its pretty sh**y. Otherwise Cael could have just said we still want you but Nevills is also coming and there's no money for you... and let Haines decide from there. Recruits have been and will be recruited over all the time at major programs. This is just a very publicized example.

 

He's going into his senior year.

 

Don't have a monster problem with it then. Kid has the time and credentials to get a full ride elsewhere. And this could be added motivation for him to excel on the mat in college. Not moral move of the year, but he went to his house and did it person. Will be interesting to see how it sits with PA crowd though.

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Guest Hammerlock3
Integrity does not mean never changing your mind. You can call him frivolous if you want.

 

Those of you feigning certainty (acadia) in regards to a situation like this, in which they have no first hand information, and there are a myriad of extenuating circumstances, obviously have an axe to grind.

 

Do you not know how verbal agreements work? Yes, they are not binding, but when a kid verbals and stands by it, he is essentially assuming he has the next 4-5 years of his life figured out and is no longer looking at other places. For an in-state guy as accomplished as Haines is, and who has shown a real desire to be a part of the program, you don't just make a verbal agreement and then back out 8 months later. It's not fair to him or his parents. The lesson learned here that some seem to be ok with is that you shouldn't trust a scholarship offer from Cael until the LOI is signed-whether you want to call that poor integrity or good business sense is up to you.

 

If you draw the line at integrity or business sense, it's a no brainer. This is cael's job, not some volunteer T-Ball nonsense.

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D1 wrestling, like it or not, is a business. It is not about fulfilling the dreams of a very deserving wrestler (Haines) to wrestle in the most visible program in his home state. It's about winning NCAA championships. Cael bet on the guy he thinks can win championships.

 

It stinks to see things go down this way, but this stuff is bound to happen with PSU's number 1 status and the desire for a lot of highly skilled wrestlers to go there. They don't have room for everyone.

 

All that said, I do not like what happened to Thomas Haines. Hopefully, this will make for a great rivalry down the road. I'll be rooting for Haines.

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Integrity does not mean never changing your mind. You can call him frivolous if you want.

 

Those of you feigning certainty (acadia) in regards to a situation like this, in which they have no first hand information, and there are a myriad of extenuating circumstances, obviously have an axe to grind.

 

You announce the next day a better recruit. This isn't about changing your mind, this about a better prospect showing interest. Come no, seriously, just stop. Call a spade, a spade, Cael is a great competitor, a great coach, but this sanctimonious can do no wrong isht, needs to stop. He's a human being. And it's no more complicated than the women who sees a better mate, and dumps her man for the new guy. If he had integrity he wouldn't recruited over Haines once he had him locked in.

 

Honestly, if I were Haines I'd tell Cael to go f himself and hold a serious grudge, and whup Nevills axx every time they faced. There was no more satisfying feeling I'm sure for Bubba than decking the golden boy in the NCAA finals. It made Cael look like an axx and that's what champions do. I mean Michael Jordan invited his HS coach as well as te guy the coach kept on the team over him and stated to that coach, Pop Herring, “I wanted to make sure you understood: You made a mistake, dude.”

 

And it wasn't said as a joke. I wouldn't walk on at PSU, I'd make it my goal to beat the isht out of PSU every time I faced them, and use it as fuel to make sure Cael knows he made a mistake.

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Did Cael recruit and pursue Haines? If he did that would be a bit shady but if Haines just decided on his own that he wanted to go to PSU why on earth wouldn't Cael accept his verbal commitment? What's he supposed to say, "no Thomas, you don't want to come here because we MIGHT get some HWT from CA? Get real.

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Did Cael recruit and pursue Haines? If he did that would be a bit shady but if Haines just decided on his own that he wanted to go to PSU why on earth wouldn't Cael accept his verbal commitment? What's he supposed to say, "no Thomas, you don't want to come here because we MIGHT get some HWT from CA? Get real.

 

Read the article he was recruited and he wanted to go there.

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If you draw the line at integrity or business sense, it's a no brainer. This is cael's job, not some volunteer T-Ball nonsense.

 

The bottom line is you don't give a verbal agreement as a coach if you aren't sure you're willing to take the kid. It reflects very poorly on the staff, and while you may think it is a good business decision in the short term because Neville's is the better recruit, it has the potential to impact future recruits (albeit, this is not THAT likely, since everyone wants to wrestle for Cael).

 

 

 

This lesson should actually be about all coaches and not just Cael.

 

Can you name another coach who has notably reneged on a verbal? I'm sure it has happened, and I'm sure plenty will go from offering a kid .75 of a scholarship to then saying they only have room for .5 .. But to go from actively recruiting a guy, making a big deal about his committment, and then offering him absolutely nothing seems different from any situation that I can remember. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Brands/Blanton fiasco, but i don't think it was quite this egregious.

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Why is everyone giving Cael credit (or even going so far as to say it's a SHOW of integrity) for undercutting, ditching and altering the course of this kid's life as soon as a bigger prospect shows himself, forcing Haines into an embarrassing situation under the scrutiny of the mass wrestling media for being "scared", solely based on the fact that he drove an hour or two to the kid's house to tell him that he was about to do so - without even mentioning the real reason behind his actions, which the Haines family instead found out on social media the next day?

 

I'm no Cael hater, nor a Penn State hater - in fact, I'm a fan of quite a few of Penn State's wrestlers and the program - but the focus of this story should NOT be on the fact that Cael went to see this kid face-to-face (as some are trying to make it).

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This entire situation stinks. When Haines gave a verbal to PSU, did Sanderson have a prior conversation with him promising a scholarship? If Sanderson led Haines to believe that a scholarship was forthcoming, then I have lost a lot of respect for him. Fact is no one knows what was said except the main parties.

 

My hunch is that Haines will make PSU pay for this on the mat. Years ago, Jay Mulligan from Springfield College was told by the Army coach that he was not good enough to wrestle for the Black Knights. Mulligan went 4-0 against Army in dual meets. Mulligan did become a DII All American.

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Can you name another coach who has notably reneged on a verbal? I'm sure it has happened, and I'm sure plenty will go from offering a kid .75 of a scholarship to then saying they only have room for .5 .. But to go from actively recruiting a guy, making a big deal about his committment, and then offering him absolutely nothing seems different from any situation that I can remember. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Brands/Blanton fiasco, but i don't think it was quite this egregious.

 

 

Brands and Blanton had agreed to a scholarship amount and then Brands reduced it. Seems more egregious to me, not less.

 

So many people making such a fuss here. Yes, this has to be disappointing for Haines but when it comes down to scholarships, it is flat out business and these coaches are paid to do what's in the best interest of the team within the rules. Haines is now in negotiation with at least 3 big time programs with plenty of time to decide. Not exactly the end of the world for this young man and I wish him the best. The guy is going down as a PA high school legend no matter where he ends up.

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If you draw the line at integrity or business sense, it's a no brainer. This is cael's job, not some volunteer T-Ball nonsense.

 

The bottom line is you don't give a verbal agreement as a coach if you aren't sure you're willing to take the kid. It reflects very poorly on the staff, and while you may think it is a good business decision in the short term because Neville's is the better recruit, it has the potential to impact future recruits (albeit, this is not THAT likely, since everyone wants to wrestle for Cael).

 

 

 

This lesson should actually be about all coaches and not just Cael.

 

Brands and Blanton had agreed to a scholarship amount and then Brands reduced it. Seems more egregious to me, not less.

 

So many people making such a fuss here. Yes, this sucked for Haines but when it comes down to scholarships, it is flat out business and these coaches are paid to do what's in the best interest of the team within the rules.

 

Can you name another coach who has notably reneged on a verbal? I'm sure it has happened, and I'm sure plenty will go from offering a kid .75 of a scholarship to then saying they only have room for .5 .. But to go from actively recruiting a guy, making a big deal about his commitment, and then offering him absolutely nothing seems different from any situation that I can remember. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Brands/Blanton fiasco, but i don't think it was quite this egregious.

 

Bringing Brands into this thread is a big mistake... Didn't he dump all over a whole program, when he took 5 guys to Iowa with him? Sheeeesh.

 

Meanwhile, shame on the Haines family as well, for not hedging their bets. This happens all the time in Basketball, Football, Baseball etc ... Until you get an agreement on Paper, all it is ... is a discussion, and a verbal. I really doubt Cael told them they were not going to entertain any more guys who wanted to wrestle at PSU.

 

There is no question it must be a disappointing development for the Haines Family and their son. However, in this era of competitive College sports, it's not a surprising development. As disappointing as these appears to be, so far both parties are seemingly handling it fairly well. I'm sure it's a bummer for Haines, yet he has an opportunity to prove PSU wrong in his upcoming college career. Does Iowa need a HVY in the upcoming years? Or Minny? tOSU? I'm sure he's gonna land on his feet, and make things interesting in the upcoming years.

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This will give every coach in the country an in with PSU recruits,.

 

I am a parent. I also wrestled for, and was recruited by OSU. If they did this to my son, it would be hell-to-pay for the coaches and or school. I'd get 'em somehow. As a recruit...I would indeed go somewhere to stick it to Cael and the boys.

 

Also, last I checked, PSU was built to teach the students of Pennsylvania, or for more $$ out-of-state kids. National championships has nothing to do with that. That is the boards and the alumni...which don't care at all about education.

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Did Cael recruit and pursue Haines? If he did that would be a bit shady but if Haines just decided on his own that he wanted to go to PSU why on earth wouldn't Cael accept his verbal commitment? What's he supposed to say, "no Thomas, you don't want to come here because we MIGHT get some HWT from CA? Get real.

 

Read the article he was recruited and he wanted to go there.

Cael couldn't recruit him until July 1st. Haines would be the one that would have had to initiate contact with Penn State.

 

When Haines contacts Cael is he supposed to say, "nope not interested, sorry?"

 

Lets be real as Haines was the one who started with the verbal in November. Per NCAA regulations Cael probably responded with a "great, glad to have you on board, we can discuss financials after July 1 as we will know our scholarship allotment then." Come July 2nd Cael goes to the guy's house and says he wouldn't be a good fit(note he can't say we are recruiting another heavy).

 

I give Cael credit for 1. doing this in person and 2. giving the guy a heads up to look at other schools that would have and open slot for a guy like Haines. I can understand that the Haines family would be a little upset, but life goes on and he will find another good school to attend. It isn't the end of the world here fellas.

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I like the article and I think it shows integrity and honor with both the Haines father and son as well as Cael. I'm sure Cael would love to have both Haines and Nevills and let them fight it out but the name of the game is winning national championships with 9.9 scholarships. Handing two full rides out to two blue-chip heavies wouldn't be good for the team's big picture. Cael took the bird in hand verbal from Haines in November and received another verbal from Nevills around the first of July when schollies could be discussed. Obviously Cael prefers Nevills over Haines while at the same time showing due respect to Haines with a face to face discussion of the issue. There's nothing fishy about making tough decisions especially when you take the time to drive out to a recruits home and tell them straight the news that they are likely not going to receive a scholarship. I'm sure Cael would love Haines to walk-on but obviously Haines will receive multiple scholarship offers from other schools and will likely take advantage of those offers.

 

 

Well said.

 

Haines gave a verbal pledge last November. Cael took it, as ANY coach would have. Nevills gave a verbal pledge in late June. This put Cael in the position of having to decide between Nevills and Haines. Cael chose Nevills.

 

Haines will get some money from another school, and everyone will end up winning. Nothing nefarious to see here.

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Did Cael recruit and pursue Haines? If he did that would be a bit shady but if Haines just decided on his own that he wanted to go to PSU why on earth wouldn't Cael accept his verbal commitment? What's he supposed to say, "no Thomas, you don't want to come here because we MIGHT get some HWT from CA? Get real.

 

Read the article he was recruited and he wanted to go there.

Cael couldn't recruit him until July 1st. Haines would be the one that would have had to initiate contact with Penn State.

 

When Haines contacts Cael is he supposed to say, "nope not interested, sorry?"

 

Lets be real as Haines was the one who started with the verbal in November. Per NCAA regulations Cael probably responded with a "great, glad to have you on board, we can discuss financials after July 1 as we will know our scholarship allotment then." Come July 2nd Cael goes to the guy's house and says he wouldn't be a good fit(note he can't say we are recruiting another heavy).

 

I give Cael credit for 1. doing this in person and 2. giving the guy a heads up to look at other schools that would have and open slot for a guy like Haines. I can understand that the Haines family would be a little upset, but life goes on and he will find another good school to attend. It isn't the end of the world here fellas.

 

This is exactly right. Note the pennlive article. No scholarship offer was given, but that Thomas verbally committed to PSU. Cael would obviously love to have him, but will not have the resources to put a lot of money in one spot. He thought it would be better to let Thomas know that he would not be getting the money, so let him know ASAP so that he can try to find another school, knowing that he will get plenty of scholarship money elsewhere. Stinks, but he let him know so that Haines could move on.

 

Cael was right in what he did handled the situation. His job is to build a team to win national titles and get quality educations. In his position, you have to make some tough decisions, and he did.

 

This stuff occurs in college football and basketball EVERY DAY. And in those cases, actual scholarship offers get pulled. It happens.

 

And don't compare this to the Bubba J story. I'm sure Cael did not lose any sleep because Bubba won a national title, and that it wasn't with PSU or against DT. Cael let him move on because he did not fit the character dynamic that he wanted for his team. The situation is not apples to apples.

 

In the end, Dapper Dan committee better have at least one matchup circled for next March!

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