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sparkywhite

cael did haines dirty?

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Yup, the rule is that a coach can't contact a kid before such and such a date. So in the real world it works like this - college coach contacts the kids school or club coach and tells them he is interested in a kid. Coach relays the message to the kid. Kid then sends an email to the college coach and asks if they can call them at an appointed time. Bottom line, the discussions happen. The college coaches make verbal offers to recruits, specifying how they see their roster shaping up, and what they are offering in terms of tuition and expenses. They press kids early for verbal commitments to lock the kid up. Once a kid gives a verbal commitment coaches at other schools move on and that door shuts for the recruit. It';s even crazier for girls sports where Sophomore girls are being pushed for verbal commitments the summer before their Junior year of high school.

 

I'm not impressed with Sanderson's situational ethics.

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Hey guys, I have read the article off the link about three times now. I do not see anywhere where Sanderson offered the wrestler or promised him anything.

 

“He said that they didn’t feel Thomas was the right fit and maybe the verbal agreement was done too quickly and maybe they should have put a little more thought into it,’’ David Haines said about his conversation with Sanderson.

 

Can an athlete verbally commit to a school, without that school having any say in his verbal commitment at all? I mean before the fact.

 

It looks to me like all the action was on the part of Haines. Of course I may be wrong.

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Athletes go back on verbal agreements all the time, so I am not sure how big of deal it is. Personally though, I am a little old-fashioned and think that a man's word should be as good as a contract. Plus, if a high school kid does it, that is one thing. If a head coach of a major program does it, that is another. I don't want to be too judgmental because maybe there were things done on Haines part that we don't know about, but the way it seems to me is that Cael (like many successful coaches) will do anything to win. Even if that means something slightly less than ethical.

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The Haines/Nevills and Blandon/Gambrall situations have some similarities and differences.

 

Similarities: In both situations, one kid made a verbal commitment (Haines to PSU, Blanton to Iowa), then the school attracted they liked better (Nevills to PSU, Gambrall to Iowa), and then the coach (Brands / Sanderson) broke the news to the first kid in a way that caused him to decommit.

 

Differences:

 

1. Brands reneged on part of Blanton's prevoiusly-promised scholarship (reducing it by 40%). Sanderson had never made any promises about scholarship money, or any other promises at all except to accept his verbal.

 

2. Brands broke the news to Blanton less than a week before the National LOI period, minimizing Blanton's opportunity to pursue alternatives. Sanderson told Haines' family within a day of the first permissible opportunity (7/1, when NCAA rules permit scholarships to be discussed).

 

3. Sanderson told Haines' family in person. Brands just called Blanton's mom from his phone.

 

Oh, one other difference:

 

4. According to VakAttack, Iowa's handling of the Blanton situation was perfectly above-board and wholly undeserving of criticism, but PSU's handling of the Haines situation was "crappy."

 

Why is my name always coming out of your mouth/fingers? Geez.

 

From the horse's mouth:

 

Blanton said Brands called Thursday to tell the Blantons that Jordan?s scholarship, originally a full ride, would be cut for his freshman year to 60 percent. For his final three years, it would be a full scholarship.

 

Blanton said Iowa was trying to find money for an All-American who was granted another red-shirt season.

 

-------------------------

 

Iowa's class included two-time Illinois state champion Jordan Blanton until he backed out of his commitment last week when the Hawkeyes asked him to reallocate scholarship funds so they could have the finances to redshirt Alex Tsirtsis this year and bring him back for his senior season in 2008-09.

 

NCAA rules prohibit Brands and Iowa officials from commenting on prospective recruits until they have signed a letter of intent.

 

"(Brands) really didn't go against his word, and I don't want people to think less of him as a person or a coach because it was my decision," Blanton said. "They didn't force me away. It was just something as a team that they had to do and it made me look at a couple options, and that's the way it went. But he didn't completely renege on his offer or anything like that. He didn't do anything bad, and I don't want him to have the reputation that he does that kind of thing."Blanton, a projected 174-pounder in college, said he is considering Illinois and other schools that have recently come back into the picture for his services.

 

So, just to be clear, you have no idea what you're talking about. And I've said, repeatedly, that Cael did what he had to do if he feels that Nevills is the better prospect, but that he could have handled it better than letting the kid get blindsided. Repeatedly as in I've defended Cael several times. I'm sorry that since I didn't say that it was perfect that I am somehow attacking him.

 

I do love how somehow Brands has to be dragged into a totally unrelated thread.

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If Brands did things the way BAC described him then good, he deserves to have his name drug through the mud. Being a head coach isn't easy - that's why they make the money they do at big programs. Making a few enemies along the way comes with the territory when you need to make decisions that come to money. Brands dicked a kid over. Maybe it wasn't entirely his fault with the Tsirtsis scenario, but it was still a dickish move.

If anything were the way BAC describes, you might have some legitimate ground. Unfortunately, I doubt that.

Brands may have had promises to both Tsirtsis and Blanton. My guess is that the prior promise won out, not the recruit he perceived to be better. Like Sanderson's situation, Brands was/is not at liberty to talk about it. Leave it to the Ninja Lion fans to drag Brands into this.

 

Here's an article describing how it unfolded: http://www.mchenrycountysports.com/colu ... 899182.txt

 

In pertinent part:

 

Blanton, who committed to Iowa in May, withdrew his commitment over the weekend and probably will sign with Illinois sometime next week. He plans to visit Champaign this weekend with his parents (Jack and Stacey), at which point he could make his commitment to the Fighting Illini official.

 

“I can’t believe how it happened,” said Blanton, R-B’s 171-pounder who owns a 111-1 career record and won two Class A state championships.

 

Blanton said Brands called Thursday to tell the Blantons that Jordan’s scholarship, originally a full ride, would be cut for his freshman year to 60 percent. For his final three years, it would be a full scholarship.

 

Blanton said Iowa was trying to find money for an All-American who was granted another red-shirt season.

 

“It didn’t sit well with me,” Blanton said. “They were changing things around before I even set foot on campus. I felt like I wasn’t that big of a deal. They wanted an answer Thursday night.”

 

So Blanton’s answer was, “No thanks.” He decommitted, becoming a free agent less than a week before the NCAA signing period, which starts Wednesday.

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Why is my name always coming out of your mouth/fingers? Geez.

 

To my surprise I've actually agreed with a couple of your recent posts (and I've said so), but I couldn't help but snicker at your unabashed hypocrisy when you damned Cael for being so "crappy" after you expended untold amounts of ink in these forums 5 years ago defending Brands for far worse conduct.

 

So, just to be clear, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

See my post above, quoting from the article, to see what the Blanton family said -- which, you will see, matches exactly what I said. Or just read all about it:

 

http://www.mchenrycountysports.com/colu ... 899182.txt

 

http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/college ... -iowa.html

 

The Iowa crowd cried foul since the scholarship commitment wasn't in ink, so it wasn't "reneging" and Blanton graciously tried to play nice, but read the article -- the facts are what they are. Don't get mad at the messenger. You're the one that wants to canonize Brands while decrying Cael's "crappy" conduct. Have fun reconciling that one.

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So, in the article you posted yourself, Blanton's scholarship would have been cut for 1 year, and then full for his final years. Now do you still want to continue throwing out misinformation about Gambrall being the cause? Is your article accurate or not? I said, even at the time, that it was a sucky thing to happen to Blanton, but everyone was kind of surprised by Tsirtsis deciding to redshirt, and then BRands had to make a call between the kid on his roster or the kid coming in. He didn't "renege" (nor have I accused Cael) so much as he had to alter the offer due to mitigating circumstances and Blanton decided he didn't want to take the cut, which was his right. Now, why the hell is Tom Brands being dragged into this article?

 

BTW, I can't remember anyone from Iowa fanbase accusing Blanton of ducking competition as happened to Haines here.

 

Now, again, I've DEFENDED Cael on this subject multiple times, I simply said he could have handled it better than having a kid get blindsided. Other than that, I have no issue with what he did. He's clearly proven himself to be a good judge of talent, so maybe he'll end up having picked the right horse.

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I'll be the first one to agree that to build a national championship program, you have to go with the best guy you can get at any weight.

 

But it is the "Pennsylvania State University" and Haines is a darn good Pennsylvania wrestler.

 

I hope he goes to a good program and makes them eat it which is exactly the mentality he should be taking right now.

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Acadia, I read the article. It does not say that Cael actively recruited him. It seems Haines just wanted to go there so Cael said OK.

 

AnklePicker, as I read the article, it really isn't clear one way or another. But while there is reference to some kind of "verbal agreement", that agreement concievably (and I would even say likely) could have contained the caveat that they would have to review scholarship availability in July. That said, I find it hard now to pass judgement on either side. At the very least, it seems there was a misunderstanding, but it may have only been that.

 

I know I came down a bit hard on Cael at the beginning of this thread, but with what is currently known, I have to modify my stance to "no verdict". There simply isn't enough information here to judge anybody... and likely, there won't be any more coming out.

 

Expectations are premeditated resentments .....

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So, in the article you posted yourself, Blanton's scholarship would have been cut for 1 year, and then full for his final years. Now do you still want to continue throwing out misinformation about Gambrall being the cause? Is your article accurate or not? I said, even at the time, that it was a sucky thing to happen to Blanton, but everyone was kind of surprised by Tsirtsis deciding to redshirt, and then BRands had to make a call between the kid on his roster or the kid coming in. He didn't "renege" (nor have I accused Cael) so much as he had to alter the offer due to mitigating circumstances and Blanton decided he didn't want to take the cut, which was his right. Now, why the hell is Tom Brands being dragged into this article?

 

BTW, I can't remember anyone from Iowa fanbase accusing Blanton of ducking competition as happened to Haines here.

 

Now, again, I've DEFENDED Cael on this subject multiple times, I simply said he could have handled it better than having a kid get blindsided. Other than that, I have no issue with what he did. He's clearly proven himself to be a good judge of talent, so maybe he'll end up having picked the right horse.

 

How could Cael handle it better? It appears to me, the day he could legally sit down and have a conversation with the athlete, he did .. In person. I've not seen a transcript of their conversation, and have only read the Families "take" on the deal. But fro what I understand, as soon as Cael could sit down in front of the athlete he did.

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So, in the article you posted yourself, Blanton's scholarship would have been cut for 1 year, and then full for his final years. Now do you still want to continue throwing out misinformation about Gambrall being the cause? Is your article accurate or not? I said, even at the time, that it was a sucky thing to happen to Blanton, but everyone was kind of surprised by Tsirtsis deciding to redshirt, and then BRands had to make a call between the kid on his roster or the kid coming in. He didn't "renege" (nor have I accused Cael) so much as he had to alter the offer due to mitigating circumstances and Blanton decided he didn't want to take the cut, which was his right. Now, why the hell is Tom Brands being dragged into this article?

 

BTW, I can't remember anyone from Iowa fanbase accusing Blanton of ducking competition as happened to Haines here.

 

Now, again, I've DEFENDED Cael on this subject multiple times, I simply said he could have handled it better than having a kid get blindsided. Other than that, I have no issue with what he did. He's clearly proven himself to be a good judge of talent, so maybe he'll end up having picked the right horse.

 

How could Cael handle it better? It appears to me, the day he could legally sit down and have a conversation with the athlete, he did .. In person. I've not seen a transcript of their conversation, and have only read the Families "take" on the deal. But fro what I understand, as soon as Cael could sit down in front of the athlete he did.

 

He said "it's a bad fit", the very next day it comes out across Flo that NEvills had committed. All he had to say was "I'm sorry, we have decided to go in another direction". Instead he lied about his reasoning and let the kid be blindsided. He didn't have to use Nevills name or anything.

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I am not a Penn State fan. In fact, I actively root against them (except for the New Jersey kids. ) I think Cael handed the Bubba situation horribly. With all of that said, the more I am thinking about this, I am not sure what Cael could have done differently.

 

You have to take Nevills over Haines. You can't pay 2 heavyweights, especially when you have Lawson who I am not convinced either of these guys can beat. Cael was a man about it and went to the kids house. He did it the first day he could.

 

If we are going with the assumption that Cael followed the rules and never offered him anything, I have to give Cael a pass. As much as I would like to implicate Cael and PSU here, the more I read about it the more I dont see it.

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This is what's interesting to me, I've never understood how kids can verbal prior to July 1 before their senior year. If money can't be discussed then how do you know you want to go there. Thomas haines is a full ride guy no doubt. If Carl came in and offered him 25% was he supposed to be happy with that? I sure as heck wouldn't be if I were him. This is a lesson learned for all student athletes. D1 Athletics is a business and you always have to remember that. At the end of the day this may be a blessing in disguise for Haines. I'm sure he's going to get a full ride at a very good school and never look back.

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Let's be honest folks. Not many kids today are getting a fully schooly at a big-time school. They just can't afford to do this if they want to have any depth in the room. As for this situation, I'm sure there are 2 sides to this story. I have heard the Haines' side of the story. As for Cael and PSU, it's been said that Haines has been traveling to the NLWC to workout for the past 6 months on his own dime. Did the staff see something during that time that made them see Haines in a different light? Did his grades suffer enough that they thought he was a "bad fit", get out of shape, etc.? When I say this, I have no first hand information that any of it happened, but, what if? Would it make the decision by Cael palatable to anyone on the Boards? Certainly, none of that information would be permissable to release, etc. Personally, I think the fact that Cael went in person to the Haines household was honorable. This gives TH the opportunity to open his recruitment process up and it certainly isn't too late as he has between July 1st and the early November signing period to take visits, etc. GL to TH and the Nittany Lions as all parties move forward.

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So, in the article you posted yourself, Blanton's scholarship would have been cut for 1 year, and then full for his final years. Now do you still want to continue throwing out misinformation about Gambrall being the cause? Is your article accurate or not? I said, even at the time, that it was a sucky thing to happen to Blanton, but everyone was kind of surprised by Tsirtsis deciding to redshirt, and then BRands had to make a call between the kid on his roster or the kid coming in. He didn't "renege" (nor have I accused Cael) so much as he had to alter the offer due to mitigating circumstances and Blanton decided he didn't want to take the cut, which was his right. Now, why the hell is Tom Brands being dragged into this article?

 

BTW, I can't remember anyone from Iowa fanbase accusing Blanton of ducking competition as happened to Haines here.

 

Now, again, I've DEFENDED Cael on this subject multiple times, I simply said he could have handled it better than having a kid get blindsided. Other than that, I have no issue with what he did. He's clearly proven himself to be a good judge of talent, so maybe he'll end up having picked the right horse.

 

How could Cael handle it better? It appears to me, the day he could legally sit down and have a conversation with the athlete, he did .. In person. I've not seen a transcript of their conversation, and have only read the Families "take" on the deal. But fro what I understand, as soon as Cael could sit down in front of the athlete he did.

 

He said "it's a bad fit", the very next day it comes out across Flo that NEvills had committed. All he had to say was "I'm sorry, we have decided to go in another direction". Instead he lied about his reasoning and let the kid be blindsided. He didn't have to use Nevills name or anything.

 

He also said ...

 

“He said that they did not feel Thomas was the right fit and maybe the verbal agreement was done too quickly and maybe they should have put a little more thought into it,’’

 

If Cael's sentence structure, or choice of adjectives, or verbs is the biggest issue we have .... :roll:

 

It's a matter of "He said" ... "We said" ...

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With all of that said, the more I am thinking about this, I am not sure what Cael could have done differently.

 

How about not promising the moon to every high school kid that fancies his eye before the signing period? You can say that you can't blame Cael for doing this, but it might make other wrestlers a bit down the ladder think hard about doing a verbal with PSU when they could lock up a sweet spot with many other top notch schools.

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I wonder if the identity of the kid's high school matters. It does in football.

 

For example, would Cael have done this if Haines were at Apple Valley, Blair, St Paris Graham? I've got to think he'd never get another kid from any of those programs.

 

Again, I'm trying to draw a parallel to football...which may not be there. PSU has a verbal commitment from a small shifty RB from DeMatha, Allen. After last season, O'Brien learned that very big RB's (like Zwinak) fare better in the B10. I am also thinking of Ron Dayne of Wisconsin. Anyway, a bigger RB might be available. But I don't think O'Brien is pulling Allen's ship. He'd likely never get another kid from DeMatha.

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You can say that you can't blame Cael for doing this, but it might make other wrestlers a bit down the ladder think hard about doing a verbal with PSU when they could lock up a sweet spot with many other top notch schools.

 

I'm uncomfortable with what happened, although I think it's just the nature of big-time athletics. In many spheres of life, what Cael did wouldn't be thought of as good practice in that once you give your word, you've got to stand behind it.

 

I'm sure a lot of kids naturally want to go to PSU and start on a national championship squad, but have no clue how tough that room really is, or just how good the other kid is that they're going to have to beat out. The same could be said for the Iowa or Okie State rooms.

 

Bottom line, if you're Thomas Haines, expect to see Nick Nevills, or some other top-top-top kid in the room, too. Otherwise, it wouldn't be PSU/Iowa/Okie State.

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It may have been unclear to the Haines', but "it's a bad fit" and "we have decided to go in another direction" meant exactly the same thing in this scenario, as opposed to one being a lie and another the truth. Haines would have been a bad fit (in Cael's eyes) because it would be unnecessary to have both of them taking up $ (bad fit), and he believes Nevills is/will be better (another direction). I don't presume to know exactly what he could say and what he couldn't about another recruit.

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With all of that said, the more I am thinking about this, I am not sure what Cael could have done differently.

 

How about not promising the moon to every high school kid that fancies his eye before the signing period? You can say that you can't blame Cael for doing this, but it might make other wrestlers a bit down the ladder think hard about doing a verbal with PSU when they could lock up a sweet spot with many other top notch schools.

What did he promise any high school kid?

 

How many conference calls with parents and coach Sanderson have you been on? CC or BCC'd on their emails?

 

Redact the names but share your insights.

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I wonder if the identity of the kid's high school matters. It does in football.

 

For example, would Cael have done this if Haines were at Apple Valley, Blair, St Paris Graham? I've got to think he'd never get another kid from any of those programs.

 

Again, I'm trying to draw a parallel to football...which may not be there. PSU has a verbal commitment from a small shifty RB from DeMatha, Allen. After last season, O'Brien learned that very big RB's (like Zwinak) fare better in the B10. I am also thinking of Ron Dayne of Wisconsin. Anyway, a bigger RB might be available. But I don't think O'Brien is pulling Allen's ship. He'd likely never get another kid from DeMatha.

Here's another example for football:

 

"Franklin isn’t the only coach who holds these sentiments.

 

Mark Stoops, Nick Saban and Les Miles all have offered verbal scholarships to middle school prospects in the last two years.

 

Most recently, Stoops offered a scholarship to a 7th grader Jairus Brents, who attended the Kentucky football camp this summer. He competed with senior receivers and won several different one-on-one battles, making three INTs and batting down several others. No-brainer.

 

LSU and Alabama have both offered 8th grade phenom Dylan Moses. Moses isn’t your typical middle school prospect, sitting at 6-1, 215 pounds and owning a 34” vertical with a 4.40 40. That’s Derrick Henry type of ability. No-brainer.

 

Which brings us to the question everyone asks: should there an age limit on verbal scholarship offers?

 

It’s truly different for every prospect. Of course recruits’ attitudes and physical statures change from 7th or 8th grade into high school. But if you’re good, you’re good. And both Brents and Moses have legitimate D1 talent.

 

Verbal offers are not written offers and are not set in stone. Prospects can’t receive written offers until their senior year, so what’s the big deal about a verbal offer?"

 

Here's the article:

 

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/j ... prospects/

 

UCLA and USC have also "offered" junior/middle school kids.

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It may have been unclear to the Haines', but "it's a bad fit" and "we have decided to go in another direction" meant exactly the same thing in this scenario, as opposed to one being a lie and another the truth. Haines would have been a bad fit (in Cael's eyes) because it would be unnecessary to have both of them taking up $ (bad fit), and he believes Nevills is/will be better (another direction). I don't presume to know exactly what he could say and what he couldn't about another recruit.

 

It is not the same thing anywhere except in Cael's head, since he knew exactly what he meant. ALl of your descriptions are from Cael's perspective. There is no way for Haines to have known that, and it's pretty clear from his father's quotes that they were totally blindsided by a top HW prospect committing less than 12 hours after Cael told them it was a bad fit.

 

What that essentially tells them is that Cael came to their house and lied about what was happening. Maybe he was trying to spare himself the awkwardness of telling a kid you think you have found a better prospect? He's already in the position of power and control of the situation, he could have spared the kid the embarrassment of finding out on the internet less than 12 hours after being rejected.

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It may have been unclear to the Haines', but "it's a bad fit" and "we have decided to go in another direction" meant exactly the same thing in this scenario, as opposed to one being a lie and another the truth. Haines would have been a bad fit (in Cael's eyes) because it would be unnecessary to have both of them taking up $ (bad fit), and he believes Nevills is/will be better (another direction). I don't presume to know exactly what he could say and what he couldn't about another recruit.

 

It is not the same thing anywhere except in Cael's head, since he knew exactly what he meant. ALl of your descriptions are from Cael's perspective. There is no way for Haines to have known that, and it's pretty clear from his father's quotes that they were totally blindsided by a top HW prospect committing less than 12 hours after Cael told them it was a bad fit.

 

What that essentially tells them is that Cael came to their house and lied about what was happening. Maybe he was trying to spare himself the awkwardness of telling a kid you think you have found a better prospect? He's already in the position of power and control of the situation, he could have spared the kid the embarrassment of finding out on the internet less than 12 hours after being rejected.

 

I was suggesting an example from Cael's perspective intentionally. To him, trying to be sensitive while not revealing too much information, his statement was probably not intended to be misleading. I wasn't arguing from the Haines' perspective as that has been voiced in the article; if they feel they were lied to, that is thir prerogative. It's not hard to imagine that Cael thought "not a good fit" would be understood by the family as a nicer way of saying "we're after another recruit", would it? I just think a lot of this is splitting hairs on semantics. It's too bad for Haines, great for Nevills, and undetermined for PSU. In the meantime, I just don't see anything nefarious in the story. It seemed as though you and others were suggesting Cael lied by not telling them specifically about Nevills, when he may have "told" them in what he thought was the most proper way, all things considered.

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