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jeffr_ideal

Taylor v. Tsargush match

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The amount of complaining on here is out of control.

 

When it's low scoring, people say it's boring and foreign wrestlers only attack once or twice per match and FILA is terrible for not changing the rules to make it more exciting for the IOC. Then people grumble about the good old days, and wonder how our wrestlers would do under folkstyle rules.

 

Then FILA changes the rules to encourage scoring and constant attacks, and now everyone is pissed that there's too much scoring and they prefer low scores and we should be like soccer with one or two points every 90 minutes. Then they complain about FILA changing things just to please the IOC, and then they grumble about the good old days, and wonder how our wrestlers would do under folkstyle rules.

No complaint about too much scoring, just the way to low T-fall level and the even more absurd two threes or a five ending a match even if those moves only garner a one point lead. Great matches have been truncated and good wrestling has been missed out on by the desire to end matches as quickly as possible.

 

Other than the post 2004 rule apologists, who has credited FILA with creating rules that encourage constant attacks? They are just partially returning to actual wrestling rules.

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While I agree a 10 pt nearfall would be nicer, I do not have problem with the current rules....actually really like them. Why is it all of a sudden matches are so much more high scoring? Why are there more turns? And shouldn't wrestlers "adjust" to the new rules to limit being teched in 30 seconds? Maybe they need to work on their takedown defense more? Maybe they need to work on par tar more? Point is, the new rules are light years better than the last ones and we need to quit complaining like a bunch of women.

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While I agree a 10 pt nearfall would be nicer, I do not have problem with the current rules....actually really like them. Why is it all of a sudden matches are so much more high scoring? Why are there more turns? And shouldn't wrestlers "adjust" to the new rules to limit being teched in 30 seconds? Maybe they need to work on their takedown defense more? Maybe they need to work on par tar more? Point is, the new rules are light years better than the last ones and we need to quit complaining like a bunch of women.

 

I think there's near unanimity that the new rules are far better for FS, no one's arguing that. It's just that with 7 pt TFs the less superior wrestle can win on a fluke, not unlike BG/clinch situations previously. Adjusting to the new rules is one thing, but we've already seen a number of situations where happenstance trumps skill because of the 7 pt rule.

 

But I'll quit complaining now, I'm starting to sound like a bunch of BigBrogs...

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What is ironic about "pamela"?

Two threes or one five ending a match is a bigger issue than a seven point tech.

 

 

You're probably right about the first two being a bigger problem but the seven point tech creates a rational for nations who hate the two pt takedown to knock it back down to no more than a pushout. No 7 pt tech, no problem with a takedown being 2 and a pushout 1.

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Guys the 7-pt TF is designed to encourage people to get the match over. If you got to 10-0, folks may be less inclined to go for the tech. Matches seem to be more high-scoring now and people are looking to get it over with. Which is a good thing.

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Guys the 7-pt TF is designed to encourage people to get the match over. If you got to 10-0, folks may be less inclined to go for the tech. Matches seem to be more high-scoring now and people are looking to get it over with. Which is a good thing.

I don't think a 10 point TF would lead to inactivity if a takedown was still worth 2. But in any event, the way it is now, three takedowns is nearly a tech. So we have to ask ourselves, is a race to 3 takedowns a wrestling match? Maybe it is, but it strikes me as something more of a drill you would find in the practice room than a real match. I would agree that at the elite levels, one guy going 3-0 in the takedown game versus the opponent is usually a sign of a better wrestler. But even still, 7 points with 2 point takedowns is still a bit short. I think 10 points (what they initially said) would have been perfect. A fine line between too few and too many.

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Guys the 7-pt TF is designed to encourage people to get the match over. If you got to 10-0, folks may be less inclined to go for the tech. Matches seem to be more high-scoring now and people are looking to get it over with. Which is a good thing.

 

I don't totally agree. I think it is in place for some of the same reasons as the two 3's or one 5 throw rules, keep conditionings importance to a minimum, emphasize throws over takedowns, and keep matches as short as possible with more randomized winner.

 

Ball grabbing and forced situational wrestling used to do this for them.

 

But on the whole the new rules are way better. So maybe if we keep fighting for these relatively minor changes then we'll have a set of rules we all want to use for the foreseeable future.

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While I agree a 10 pt nearfall would be nicer, I do not have problem with the current rules....actually really like them. Why is it all of a sudden matches are so much more high scoring? Why are there more turns? And shouldn't wrestlers "adjust" to the new rules to limit being teched in 30 seconds? Maybe they need to work on their takedown defense more? Maybe they need to work on par tar more? Point is, the new rules are light years better than the last ones and we need to quit complaining like a bunch of women.

 

I think there's near unanimity that the new rules are far better for FS, no one's arguing that. It's just that with 7 pt TFs the less superior wrestle can win on a fluke, not unlike BG/clinch situations previously. Adjusting to the new rules is one thing, but we've already seen a number of situations where happenstance trumps skill because of the 7 pt rule.

 

But I'll quit complaining now, I'm starting to sound like a bunch of BigBrogs...

 

 

Fluke?

 

A couple of assumptions here

 

Both wrestlers are trying to win the match

 

Both wrestlers must do this by scoring points

 

So the less superior wrestler is trying to score

 

The superior wrestler knows this

 

the less superior wrestler still scores 7 unanswered points or goes up by 7

 

 

logic would imply that either the "superior" wrestler was unprepared

 

or

 

he was not "superior"

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Fluke?

 

A couple of assumptions here

 

Both wrestlers are trying to win the match

 

Both wrestlers must do this by scoring points

 

So the less superior wrestler is trying to score

 

The superior wrestler knows this

 

the less superior wrestler still scores 7 unanswered points or goes up by 7

 

 

logic would imply that either the "superior" wrestler was unprepared

 

or

 

he was not "superior"

 

How short is our memory?? Do people seriously not remember wrestlers losing the first period 6-0 or 5-0 (or even 4-0!) under the old rules, all of which would be a tech fall ending the match today, and coming back to win the last two periods? Yes, those old rules suck, but to say that a 1-2 takedown gap with a turn signifies dominance does not make sense to me. I think we're imagining the takedowns and/or turn occurring while completely overpowering opposition, but that's frequently not the case on the senior level; there are razor-close calls on exposure and takedowns inches from going the other way. A 7-point gap (with 2pt TDs) is especially problematic for Cadet and Junior level btw, Pico just went down 8-0 before winning 20-10.

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A 7-point gap (with 2pt TDs) is especially problematic for Cadet and Junior level btw, Pico just went down 8-0 before winning 20-10.

Was this a refereeing error, or did they adjust the tech fall margin for Fargo?

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A 7-point gap (with 2pt TDs) is especially problematic for Cadet and Junior level btw, Pico just went down 8-0 before winning 20-10.

Was this a refereeing error, or did they adjust the tech fall margin for Fargo?

Every tech at Fargo has been 10 or more so I surmise they are using 10. Either that or there has been an incredible rash of 5's to end every tech match. ;)

 

PS: There has been no shortages of techs. Twelve might be a better level. Or fifteen and return to tech being a mercy rule, rather than a match shortening simply to shorten it rule.

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Taylor is a stud. That's a great match against a very seasoned international wrestler (understatement of the year). The scoreboard is often misleading in this new era of freestyle rules.

 

I don't want to get on a rules kick again, because it just gets my blood boiling, but I wish FILA would just figure out that we need FEWER match stoppages, not more. Two positions creating action in that match were stopped due to 'rules'. If you want to do the shotclock thing and the passivity point, I won't argue it to the death, but just don't stop the match. Award the warning, award the point, and let them keep wrestling.

 

If we could get Wade Schalles to post on this topic, maybe we could get a response from 'FILA Stan'...

 

Sorry to change gears on you guys, but I just watched that match again, and Tirapelle is exactly right.

 

Watch, right at 2:00 in the first period, Tsargush had that overhook on Taylor and it sure looked like "fireworks" were coming, but no, the ref blows the whistle.

 

Then again at 2:34, right when the scramble was starting.

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So, it's the new rules that stopped Taylor from winning. And I guess without them Metcalf wouldn't be WTT winner, right?

 

Nope, not saying that at all. Tsargush is a stud, a 2x World champ.

 

Even with the new rules, the ref didn't have to blow the whistle at 2:00. The 2:34 whistle is a different story - I guess he had to blow the whistle after the 30 seconds elapsed.

 

Just really wanted to see that "possible" scramble at the 2:00 minute mark. They were in position to "go".

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Just a few more comments on this match and topic.

 

I agree with most of you that these new rules are SO much better than last year's rules. (And yes, me too, I wish the tech was a 10 point differential instead of 7. But again, I can live with the 7 point tech - not a real big deal. Overall, these new rules are creating tons of action, and the matches are so much more fun to watch.)

 

One more point on the 2:00 minute passivity call in the Taylor-Tsargush match. I have no problem with refs calling passivity when there is no imminent action. But as tirapell pointed out, (and sure as heck how I saw it) the ref blew the whistle outside the spirit of that passivity rule.

 

I'd also be willing to bet a bottle of Gatorade that the refs at the University's discussed that call in their officials' room after the tournament. It's a new rule, and they had to know that Taylor vs Tsargush was one of the "hottest" match-ups at the University's.

 

This is not a sour grape post for Taylor. As a wrestling fan (and even if I was rooting for Tsargush), I don't want to see that match stopped at the 2:00 minute mark.

 

Ok, the dead horse is beat.

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