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"pulled into repechage"

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Why can't International Wrestling figure out how to run a real Double Elimination tournament?

"Pulled into repechage"? You are done unless the wrestler that beat you keeps winning. An asinine way to decide things.

You may travel thousands of miles and get ONE match. An asinine way to decide things.

A real double elimination tournament would give real placings. Not "two guys get third/feel good" throw away little league mentality trophies. What's next, participation ribbons and a free hat?

Do a double elimination bracket and give everyone at least two matches. It is the least those in charge can do for the wrestlers and fans.

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This has been answered time and time again on here.

The basic idea is that they want more countries to have the chance to wrestle for a medal.

If you do true wrestlebacks to third you do two things... you eliminate one medal and you most likely get the best 3 guys (typically from wrestling countries) placing top 4th rather than 1st, 3rd, and no medal.

Both of those are counterproductive to allowing more countries the opportunity to medal.

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

This has been answered time and time again on here.

The basic idea is that they want more countries to have the chance to wrestle for a medal.

If you do true wrestlebacks to third you do two things... you eliminate one medal and you most likely get the best 3 guys (typically from wrestling countries) placing top 4th rather than 1st, 3rd, and no medal.

Both of those are counterproductive to allowing more countries the opportunity to medal.

This is absolutely insane. I don't care about the other countries placing. I care about Americans placing. You can wrestle your heart out and lose by 1 point to the number one guy. Then his next match he gets injured .. Guess what your done.  Your side of the bracket has  4 of the best guys in the world .sort of like heavy weight in this tournament. Guess what you are screwed. Lets be real . These tournaments should be seeded properly and have double elimination..Honestly right now in the USA in certain weight classes we may have 2 or 3 wrestlers who could medal in the Olympics.

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54 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

This is absolutely insane. I don't care about the other countries placing. I care about Americans placing. You can wrestle your heart out and lose by 1 point to the number one guy. Then his next match he gets injured .. Guess what your done.  Your side of the bracket has  4 of the best guys in the world .sort of like heavy weight in this tournament. Guess what you are screwed. Lets be real . These tournaments should be seeded properly and have double elimination..Honestly right now in the USA in certain weight classes we may have 2 or 3 wrestlers who could medal in the Olympics.

While I agree with you, UWW does not and absolutely believes the more countries that medal, the better.

20 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Double elimination brackets are a better wrestling product.

I agree with this as well.

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I think it's fine. 
Speeds the tournament up. 
Give's a variety of countries a shot at a medal match. 
And really makes every match life/death. Love the intensity. 

I'm guessing this stems from Facundo losing to the guy who lost to the guy who lost to the guy who made the finals . 
What's it going to matter if we give him one more chance to lose on the backside? 
Yes a true singular, double elimination 3rd would more accurately represent who was the 3rd best at the weight that day. 

But for a variety of reasons this system is fairly effective for getting the job done . 
If you encountered somebody good enough to make the finals of your weight in a given tournament, "tough break, you clearly lost to a quality guy, you get the privilege of wrestling for a medal" IF you lost to somebody who has later been beaten... go home and work harder.. 

*Tears, cries, sadness* 
"But we are American, and we flew all this way, it would be different if it was a bus ride, but we had to fly overseas and miserably got the chance to experience foreign cultures, what's even worse is the opportunity afforded to us to participate in wrestling on an entirely new level from we are used to. To make this a better experience for us and what WE are used to, I think we should run a double elimination tournament, and place 8... and seed Americans who don't wrestle anywhere but Pan-ams and have 99% Folkstyle results, in the most advantageous spots, no rhyme or reason, but I hate when we start off with really hard guys who maybe aren't the best at the weight but just a little too hard for us." 

Lord 

 

Edited by spladle08

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Chael Sonnen (and many others) have made note of the irony that we consider 8th in the world a "failure" but celebrate 8th in the NCAA tournament. It seems appropriate to actually determine placements beyond the top 6. This will give recognition to deserving people and will almost certainly achieve the objective of giving underrepresented countries some modest level of accomplishment within the sport. For Ecuador to go 0-1 is not good for morale or development. It seems like giving these types of wrestlers more matches and an opportunity to place (albeit not medal) is a win-win situation that really only requires adding more mats to the floor for certain sessions.

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11 minutes ago, TobyMcNugget said:

Chael Sonnen (and many others) have made note of the irony that we consider 8th in the world a "failure" but celebrate 8th in the NCAA tournament. 

Lost all creditability with the intro, my eyes went directly to your number of posts ;) 
Lol but no... there's numerous events to compete at and get more matches throughout the year to boost "morale and development" , you can or can not take advantage of these resources and sharpen your craft (ie Destribats who seems to wrestle literally everywhere he can) or you can show up to the worlds and lose immediately and complain about not getting given more matches. 

This is the same when we complain about seeding and don't go to any of the seeding events or meet any of the criteria. We can get as many matches as we want, we CHOOSE not to.... 
Now at the World Championships, to say "Hey world I know you all do it like this, but in America we prefer this"  

I pictured a track race where they take the top 3 times from each heat, but you ran the 5th best time and you're like "Hey lets run it again so I can have a chance at this, I know thats not the accepted practice but I could run better, I'm probably the 3rd best, if only i had more races to get better at my sport before competing on the biggest stage. 
I blame my lack of matches on how yall run this event."

Edited by spladle08

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It's literally every year. 
No complaints before the tourney, no complaints if our guys come back for bronze medals. 
But the moment a fan favorite gets eliminated. 

"This is Bullsh*t, we should run this like Folkstyle so the guy I like can get more matches"

Edited by spladle08

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Sorry I lost it there. 
I just wish people came with more of an argument than "That's what I'm used to, other countries should conform" 

Go back to your, "Merica" and  "US OPEN Champ should be #1 seeding criteria cause if you win it you're the best in the world cause this country is the best in the world" 
And I won't speak on this issue anymore, but before you hit send, deep breath, reflect, and ask yourself,
Am I typing: "I don't pay attention to any other country throughout the year and I'm basically lobbying for a folkstyle tournament" 
 

Edited by spladle08

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32 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Sorry I lost it there. 
I just wish people came with more of an argument than "That's what I'm used to, other countries should conform" 

Go back to your, "Merica" and  "US OPEN Champ should be #1 seeding criteria cause if you win it you're the best in the world cause this country is the best in the world" 
And I won't speak on this issue anymore, but before you hit send, deep breath, reflect, and ask yourself,
Am I typing: "I don't pay attention to any other country throughout the year and I'm basically lobbying for a folkstyle tournament" 
 

LOL, point taken about invoking Sonnen but I didn't need to invoke him at all to make the point. 

It is in the interest of wrestling and wrestling fans that the sport gains a foothold in countries where it is not popular. We should be looking for ways to achieve this. It is a wonderful sport (both FS and GR) and it is a shame that the seats are half-empty at the world championships. 

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1 minute ago, TobyMcNugget said:

LOL, point taken about invoking Sonnen but I didn't need to invoke him at all to make the point. 

It is in the interest of wrestling and wrestling fans that the sport gains a foothold in countries where it is not popular. We should be looking for ways to achieve this. It is a wonderful sport (both FS and GR) and it is a shame that the seats are half-empty at the world championships. 

I mean, just gotta disagree, they don't know the Folkstyle double-elimination format, which you're pushing for correct?  
And at World/Olympic events you do get recognized for your "placement",  you don't medal but its there for your future resume.
Also medal count is a big thing and will never be fiddled with. So toss the 8 medals idea out the window. (I think that's all sports Gold Silver Bronze)
 
As far as the difficulty for these lesser countries to medal.... 
I mean, they know what they bring to the table (Talent wise) when they show up.
And given a good draw they can achieve greatness, it's their "Best chance" at getting any recognition.

Hell look at Frank Molinaro at the Olympics.
Wins a criteria nail biter (upset),  gets absolutely molly whopped by the right dude, luckily the other guy that dude beat wasn't very good, Frank advances to the bronze medal match (Which is wild)
And 1 match, nothing to lose, about pulls the upset and medals at the Olympics.
Still comes away with a 5th place finish. (Reward for an underdog)

This style of bracket absolutely gives hope to the underdog.
But realistically makes sure the the 4 guys good enough to make it to the semifinals, have a shot at a medal. (Which is reasonable)
If you're looking to up your match count, do it in the lead up to the event.


 

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Just looked up Molinaro's Olympic bracket to make sure I remembered it right. Yeah  lots of places ;) 

Rank    Athlete
1st place, gold medalist(s)     Soslan Ramonov (RUS)
2nd place, silver medalist(s)     Toghrul Asgarov (AZE)
3rd place, bronze medalist(s)     Frank Chamizo (ITA)
3rd place, bronze medalist(s)     Ikhtiyor Navruzov (UZB)
5     Frank Molinaro (USA)
5     Ganzorigiin Mandakhnaran (MGL)
7     Alejandro Valdés (CUB)
8     Borislav Novachkov (BUL)
9     Franklin Gómez (PUR)
10     Zurabi Iakobishvili (GEO)
11     Haislan Garcia (CAN)
12     Yeerlanbieke Katai (CHN)
13     Andriy Kvyatkovskyi (UKR)
14     Adam Batirov (BRN)
15     Meisam Nassiri (IRI)
16     Magomedmurad Gadzhiev (POL)
17     Amas Daniel (NGR)
18     David Safaryan (ARM)
19     Sahit Prizreni (AUS)
20     Mustafa Kaya (TUR)
21     Yogeshwar Dutt (IND)
 

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2 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

I mean, just gotta disagree, they don't know the Folkstyle double-elimination format, which you're pushing for correct?  
And at World/Olympic events you do get recognized for your "placement",  you don't medal but its there for your future resume.
Also medal count is a big thing and will never be fiddled with. So toss the 8 medals idea out the window. (I think that's all sports Gold Silver Bronze)
 
As far as the difficulty for these lesser countries to medal.... 
I mean, they know what they bring to the table (Talent wise) when they show up.
And given a good draw they can achieve greatness, it's their "Best chance" at getting any recognition.

Hell look at Frank Molinaro at the Olympics.
Wins a criteria nail biter (upset),  gets absolutely molly whopped by the right dude, luckily the other guy that dude beat wasn't very good, Frank advances to the bronze medal match (Which is wild)
And 1 match, nothing to lose, about pulls the upset and medals at the Olympics.
Still comes away with a 5th place finish. (Reward for an underdog)

This style of bracket absolutely gives hope to the underdog.
But realistically makes sure the the 4 guys good enough to make it to the semifinals, have a shot at a medal. (Which is reasonable)
If you're looking to up your match count, do it in the lead up to the event.


 

I am aware of how the placements are determined but it is oftentimes arbitrary and does not reflect their true standing within the bracket. The tournament doesn't need to follow NCAA folk style bracketing but I think it is perfectly reasonable to figure out where people stand relative to each other. The only chance for many wrestlers around the world to get international matches is Worlds and Continentals and this is often due to financial constraints. If UWW is interested in growing the sport, it can't hurt to give people more opportunities to wrestle at one of the only events they attend that year. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, TobyMcNugget said:

I am aware of how the placements are determined but it is oftentimes arbitrary and does not reflect their true standing within the bracket. The tournament doesn't need to follow NCAA folk style bracketing but I think it is perfectly reasonable to figure out where people stand relative to each other. The only chance for many wrestlers around the world to get international matches is Worlds and Continentals and this is often due to financial constraints. If UWW is interested in growing the sport, it can't hurt to give people more opportunities to wrestle at one of the only events they attend that year. 

 

 

Financial constraints are an issue but giving a guy who couldn't place at Pan-Ams (Maybe due to financial restrictions) a guaranteed second a$$ whoopin... doesn't seem to have a benefit 

*Just dont think a second match at the world level is helping anyone's development. 
It genuinely just feels like something fans say when their favorite wrestler loses . 

Edited by spladle08

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14 minutes ago, TobyMcNugget said:

I am aware of how the placements are determined but it is oftentimes arbitrary and does not reflect their true standing within the bracket. The tournament doesn't need to follow NCAA folk style bracketing but I think it is perfectly reasonable to figure out where people stand relative to each other. The only chance for many wrestlers around the world to get international matches is Worlds and Continentals and this is often due to financial constraints. If UWW is interested in growing the sport, it can't hurt to give people more opportunities to wrestle at one of the only events they attend that year.

This is the point.

I'd also like to *watch* more matches.

It's also harder for 'casuals' to follow repechage and line brackets.
I don't see the downside to making the bracketing more friendly to understand.

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14 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

This is the point.

I'd also like to *watch* more matches.

It's also harder for 'casuals' to follow repechage and line brackets.
I don't see the downside to making the bracketing more friendly to understand.

1.) More friendly to Americans (everyone else gets it)
2.) I know die-hard fans that are just checking the results from the articles that get posted. 

No "Casual fan"  is up at 3am like "I don't understand how this bracketing works" 
It's not like somebody is up late thumbing through channels, like oh there's an American, oh they lost, I wonder when their next match is, I've never seen international wrestling but I'm taking an interest now
This is something dedicated fans seek out, and everyone knows the elimination rules, especially you . :)  

Edited by spladle08

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6 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

1.) More friendly to Americans (everyone else gets it)
2.) I know die-hard fans that are just checking the results from the articles that get posted. 

No (Casual fan)  is up at 3am like "I don't understand how this bracketing works" 
It's not like somebody is up late thumbing through channels, like oh there's an American, oh they lost, I wonder when their next match is, I've never seen international wrestling but I'm taking an interest now
This is something dedicated fans seek out, and everyone knows the elimination rules, especially you . :)  

Friends of ours, who aren't wrestling fanatics (I see you too), who follow along have expressed to me that the repechage brackets are confusing.

Line bracketing, rest its soul, was worse.
AND I would just like to see more matches.

 

Edited by Mike Parrish

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8 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Friends of ours, who aren't wrestling fanatics (I see you too), who follow along have expressed to me that the repechage brackets are confusing.

Line bracketing, rest its soul, was worse.

 

Is that the terminology for the thing that existed my entire Schoolboy/cadet/junior life....  (late 90s early 2000s" 
Where for the first few rounds you literally had no idea who you had the next match?  :) I was always so confused,  2nd day Fargo as the bracket got smaller and smaller, I'm like when will the best guys number show up 7 slots out from my name.  Lol horrible bracket but great memory 
 

Edited by spladle08

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