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spladle08

Women's Upper Weights Olympics

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9 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Doesn't it make more sense for Elor to take her chances in a bracket with Welker, Blades, Makoyed, Guilford and possibly Gray?  There would be no one with a bye to the finals and none of these competitors are on the level of TMS.  

It appears more daunting for Elor to drop down to 68 (thus depleting herself), go through the Trials challenge tournament and then try to take out the defending world champ (who would be waiting in the finals) in a best of 3, no?

 

Dominique Parrish is my favorite wrestler! Ask me why!

I was wondering this, she just looks big, I wonder what she decides by then . 

Also I'm as big as anyone on these boards on Yelena Mak (I was way higher on her than Pappa Parrish  before/immediately after Final X, but something must've changed for him) , but I  don't think she's got the sauce to overcome that field. Definitely a landmine though.

But anyways, clearly she's a giant and has to stay up, but why do we think so many of that next group don't drop. 
Obviously Adeline seems like a smaller hurdle than TMS simply based on being out this last year and popping out babies from an older body. 
But if the field is absolutely stacked at, I dunno, I just picture Blades or somebody (maybe Elor as some of yall have said ) just  focusing on TMS (Taylor vs Yaz style) and coming up with a game-plan that negates what she has to offer. 

I guess planning for 1 opponent just seems  more likely to yield success vs going up where apparently everyone will be . 

 

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25 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Doesn't it make more sense for Elor to take her chances in a bracket with Welker, Blades, Makoyed, Guilford and possibly Gray?  There would be no one with a bye to the finals and none of these competitors are on the level of TMS.  

It appears more daunting for Elor to drop down to 68 (thus depleting herself), go through the Trials challenge tournament and then try to take out the defending world champ (who would be waiting in the finals) in a best of 3, no?

 

Dominique Parrish is my favorite wrestler! Ask me why!

I think 68s is more likely because Elor has a smaller frame than most of the women at 76s and lots of coaches have a mindset about that.

She could go up to 76s and still be competitive, no doubt.
I think it would be a better move for a very young, very good competitor to have her wrestle fat and happy.

We shall see.

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9 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

I was way higher on her than Pappa Parrish  before/immediately after Final X, but something must've changed for him.

I'm a fan, I've sat her corner at nationals, I tried to tempt her to come to SFU.

As I said above, I see her completely fixing her two biggest problems.
Gassing and a lack of patience/match awareness.

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Just now, Mike Parrish said:

I'm a fan, I've sat her corner at nationals, I tried to tempt her to come to SFU.

As I said above, I see her completely fixing her two biggest problems.
Gassing and a lack of patience/match awareness.

I'm definitely a fan. I'm excited, you think  any of the top contenders at any weight, will change weights by this upcoming worlds?

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2 hours ago, spladle08 said:

I'm definitely a fan. I'm excited, you think  any of the top contenders at any weight, will change weights by this upcoming worlds?

 

50 - Hildebrandt is a lock. Anthony, Lampe, Fearnside may challenge, but it's Hildebrandt
53 - I don't see Dom moving. I don't see anyone beating her domestically.
55 - Winchester is pretty likely to stay. Where does Burkert go?
57 - Nobody is beating Maroulis domestically.
59 - Wide open. I think Nelson will end up on top, but I have a soft spot for Nette. Keep an eye on Janida Garcia and Estrella.
62 - Miracle stays, may have some tough matches with Page, Hilty, etc
65 - Velte likely has a lock unless Hilty moves up. Mal is wrestling the best I've ever seen her(Hat tip to Nate Engel/Beaver Dam RTC here). Where does Molinari go? Where does Bruntil go?
68 - Mensah-Stock
72 - Lots of potential movement, but I see Elor staying and getting more experience here.
76 - Wide open. I don't know if Gray is able to make a successful return. Makoyed, Elor, Guilford, Bell, Big Blades, Welker are all going to be in the hunt.

The current women's World Team is really very strong. Cracking that nut will be tough.

When we get to 2024 in Paris is where the crunch will come as we go render down to 6 weights.

I think it's hard to overestimate the inherent value in being a USAW World Team member in that you get better support, coaching, training and you get first choice of which international tournaments you want to go to. That international experience is a big deal and having the option to chose which ones you want makes your schedule easier to manage.

Don't overlook the incumbent advantage of sitting in Final X while everyone else kills each other to get to you.
Injuries, burnout, etc played a big role in the last few World Team Trials.

Edited by Mike Parrish

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1 hour ago, jross said:

Does TMS beating Gray in 2021 mean that 76 is easier than 68?  

In a word, yes.

Gray is 31 and just had twins.
I'm sure she comes back, but it's a tough row to hoe.

Mensah-Stock has a year of additional training and competition under her belt now.

We'll have to see how Adeline does. She looks great in the pics I've seen.
Too many unknowns to have much certainty though.

If I were Elor in 2024, I'd go up.

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.
55 - Winchester is pretty likely to stay. Where does Burkert go?



Thanks for the entire write up .

If think she'd stay, right?
She's better than JW and likely wants a world medal since Olympic is unlikely.

I'd assume Burk is our rep this following year .

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22 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I suspect there is a causal relationship there.
I can't point to hard data, but I scan the horizon for up and coming women within a 1-2 weight class range and I do not see the same depth of talent.

 

The generation that had to wrestle boys:
Winchester is 4 years older than Dom.
Lampe is 6 years older.
Burkert is 3 years older.
Fearnside is 2 years older.
Heaton is a year younger.
Villeascusa is a year younger.

 

Looking at the next generation who largely didn't have to wrestle boys:
Howk is 3 years younger.
Taylor is 3 years younger.
Prussin is 3 years younger.
Ikei is 4? years younger.
The rest of the younger 53kg wrestlers aren't factors right now.


Athletes who will likely stay at 50s:
Shilson
Mortimer
Golston

There's a big gap between the older generation and the younger one.
Some of this is experience and maturity, but some of it isn't.
The style of wrestling is just different.
Less physical, less rough, less intense.
 

Amit Elor doesn't have an analogue at 53kgs.

Audrey Jimenez would be the closest to that, but she's a few years out from making a senior national team (I think and I'm pretty impressed with her).

I don't see any other up and comer with breakout potential at 53kgs.

Not that I know anything at all about high level female wrestling, but I would think the chance to wrestle other girls should be good for the sport and the athletes. Gives a chance for new athletes to not get crushed right away and the more athletes the better. Also I would think the topv wrestlers are still going to wrestle boys, because they are so much better than the other girls. Just like the best middle school kids are going to train with HS wrestlers. 

I think the sport really takes off with the chance for girls to go to top D1 schools, like Iowa, on scholarship, especially if they stick with Freestyle

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1 hour ago, Jim L said:

Not that I know anything at all about high level female wrestling, but I would think the chance to wrestle other girls should be good for the sport and the athletes. Gives a chance for new athletes to not get crushed right away and the more athletes the better. Also I would think the topv wrestlers are still going to wrestle boys, because they are so much better than the other girls. Just like the best middle school kids are going to train with HS wrestlers. 

I think the sport really takes off with the chance for girls to go to top D1 schools, like Iowa, on scholarship, especially if they stick with Freestyle

It will be hard to find that balance.

Dom had 100 wins against boys in California during her high school career.
I don't see that being replicated by anyone these days.

More girls will end up wrestling in college, but I don't see the top 5 at each weight being as tough as in the past.

I've had this conversation with several collegiate coaches and they're noticing the same thing on incoming freshman classes.

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5 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

It will be hard to find that balance.

Dom had 100 wins against boys in California during her high school career.
I don't see that being replicated by anyone these days.

More girls will end up wrestling in college, but I don't see the top 5 at each weight being as tough as in the past.

I've had this conversation with several collegiate coaches and they're noticing the same thing on incoming freshman classes.

Obviously, I defer to your insight, but I am optimistic that the more girls wrestling in a good thing, both for the average wrestler and the high level girls.

Do you know how the Japanese women train? Do they grow up wrestling boys?

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2 hours ago, Jim L said:

Obviously, I defer to your insight, but I am optimistic that the more girls wrestling in a good thing, both for the average wrestler and the high level girls.

Do you know how the Japanese women train? Do they grow up wrestling boys?

In Japan, girls do not wrestle boys in tournaments, but the elite top tier girls do practice against boys in HS.  The wrestling skill level in Japan from age group up through college for girls/women is much higher than it is here, so they really don't need to wrestle against boys/men because of other elite wrestlers in the rooms, but if they need more a challenge then they do.

 

A recent example of a very young wrestler who has almost always practiced against boys in HS and has dominated senior level since she was 17 is last year's 53kg Senior WC, Akari Fujinami.

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

 

50 - Hildebrandt is a lock. Anthony, Lampe, Fearnside may challenge, but it's Hildebrandt
53 - I don't see Dom moving. I don't see anyone beating her domestically.
55 - Winchester is pretty likely to stay. Where does Burkert go?
57 - Nobody is beating Maroulis domestically.
59 - Wide open. I think Nelson will end up on top, but I have a soft spot for Nette. Keep an eye on Janida Garcia and Estrella.
62 - Miracle stays, may have some tough matches with Page, Hilty, etc
65 - Velte likely has a lock unless Hilty moves up. Mal is wrestling the best I've ever seen her(Hat tip to Nate Engel/Beaver Dam RTC here). Where does Molinari go? Where does Bruntil go?
68 - Mensah-Stock
72 - Lots of potential movement, but I see Elor staying and getting more experience here.
76 - Wide open. I don't know if Gray is able to make a successful return. Makoyed, Elor, Guilford, Bell, Big Blades, Welker are all going to be in the hunt.

The current women's World Team is really very strong. Cracking that nut will be tough.

When we get to 2024 in Paris is where the crunch will come as we go render down to 6 weights.

I think it's hard to overestimate the inherent value in being a USAW World Team member in that you get better support, coaching, training and you get first choice of which international tournaments you want to go to. That international experience is a big deal and having the option to chose which ones you want makes your schedule easier to manage.

Don't overlook the incumbent advantage of sitting in Final X while everyone else kills each other to get to you.
Injuries, burnout, etc played a big role in the last few World Team Trials.

50kg- I don't think Vicky is ever coming back.  She seems pretty happy in San Diego and she's competing at 55kg now in submission grappling.  I think Hildebrandt should actually move back up to 53kg.

53kg- Dom

55kg- Burkert vs Winchester

57- Maroulis

59- No clue

62- Miracle

65- Velte vs Molinari(old CIF rivalry lol)

68- TMS

72- Elor

76- No clue

 

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1 hour ago, CA_Wrestler said:

In Japan, girls do not wrestle boys in tournaments, but the elite top tier girls do practice against boys in HS.  The wrestling skill level in Japan from age group up through college for girls/women is much higher than it is here, so they really don't need to wrestle against boys/men because of other elite wrestlers in the rooms, but if they need more a challenge then they do.

A recent example of a very young wrestler who has almost always practiced against boys in HS and has dominated senior level since she was 17 is last year's 53kg Senior WC, Akari Fujinami.

Iron sharpens iron as they say.

As we transition away from coed tournaments and coed wrestling rooms, there's a depth that will need to be made back up with girl wrestlers.

We aren't deep enough anywhere to make this happen right now.
I don't see this happening for at least 5 years.
I don't see too many people even talking about it.

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7 hours ago, Jim L said:

Obviously, I defer to your insight, but I am optimistic that the more girls wrestling in a good thing, both for the average wrestler and the high level girls.

Do you know how the Japanese women train? Do they grow up wrestling boys?

No reason to defer, we're just shooting the **** here.
CA_Wrestler is *the source* for the questions about Japan.

I'm optimistic about the future as well, but not in the near term.
There isn't enough depth in anybody's program to bring 5 hammers deep at each weight.
There won't be for a while.

Girls who want consistent high level partners will need to wrestle boys.
That's getting rarer as girls wrestling becomes its own sport.

Edited by Mike Parrish

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8 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Iron sharpens iron as they say.

As we transition away from coed tournaments and coed wrestling rooms, there's a depth that will need to be made back up with girl wrestlers.

We aren't deep enough anywhere to make this happen right now.
I don't see this happening for at least 5 years.
I don't see too many people even talking about it.

Agree!

 

I remember the first time I saw a girl wrestle in a tournament.  Early 90's, CIF SS open tournament and she wrestling in the 98lbs weight class.  That weight class would eventually change to 103 a few years later.  She was kicking ass and it wasn't because the boys were afraid to wrestle her.  It was because she was kicking their asses.  It was amazing to see and everybody who was competing and watching in the stands was cheering for her.  I can't remember which match it was, but she pinned a guy and the roof almost got blown off.  She lost in the semis in a super close match to the eventual champion, but she placed 3rd.  The following year, she won the weight class.  It was really cool to see at the time because it was a real rarity to see a girl that was really good and TOUGH like she was.

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9 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

No reason to defer, we're just shooting the **** here.
CA_Wrestler is *the source* for the questions about Japan.

I'm optimistic about the future as well, but not in the near term.
There isn't enough depth in anybody's program to bring 5 hammers deep at each weight.
There won't be for a while.

Girls who want consistent high level partners will need to wrestle boys.
That's getting rarer as girls wrestling becomes its own sport.

Thanks for the insights. 

I'd been operating under the assumption that more=better...And had been supposing that tough kids would continue to find practice partners, which still seems likely. I certainly hadn't considered that the overall level of competition that the girls face would go down - Something that seems obvious now that you've stated it. 

Can the girls still compete against boys? Like in open tournaments, etc. - are there enough girls participating to now to fill open tournaments enough to make them worthwhile? Not that it would make up for the rigor of wrestling 100-200 matches against stronger competition over 4years of high school, but I remember being coached to find 30-50 matches in the off-season. Are coed clubs a thing, or are those separated now too? The tough girls I grew up with in the mid 90s joined the off-season clubs. It was a rough time for them - they weren't welcomed in many programs, but they'd get some tough goes in at the club. It was rare back then for a girl to find a place to wrestle at all, and even more rare for a girl to compete past middle school. 

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1 hour ago, denger said:

Thanks for the insights. 

I'd been operating under the assumption that more=better...And had been supposing that tough kids would continue to find practice partners, which still seems likely. I certainly hadn't considered that the overall level of competition that the girls face would go down - Something that seems obvious now that you've stated it. 

Can the girls still compete against boys? Like in open tournaments, etc. - are there enough girls participating to now to fill open tournaments enough to make them worthwhile? Not that it would make up for the rigor of wrestling 100-200 matches against stronger competition over 4years of high school, but I remember being coached to find 30-50 matches in the off-season. Are coed clubs a thing, or are those separated now too? The tough girls I grew up with in the mid 90s joined the off-season clubs. It was a rough time for them - they weren't welcomed in many programs, but they'd get some tough goes in at the club. It was rare back then for a girl to find a place to wrestle at all, and even more rare for a girl to compete past middle school. 

I would assume most tournaments, especially in California, will still allow this.
I mean, it's an extra registration fee...

In Oklahoma? Who knows.

The "off-season" aka "get ready for college by wrestling freestyle" will be even more important.
National level tournaments where hammers get to see other hammers will be necessary for top level girls.

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23 hours ago, CA_Wrestler said:

50kg- I don't think Vicky is ever coming back.  She seems pretty happy in San Diego and she's competing at 55kg now in submission grappling.  I think Hildebrandt should actually move back up to 53kg.

53kg- Dom

55kg- Burkert vs Winchester

57- Maroulis

59- No clue

62- Miracle

65- Velte vs Molinari(old CIF rivalry lol)

68- TMS

72- Elor

76- No clue

 

I will be interested to see if Elor will make the move up or down for the 2023 WTT.  That would allow her to compete in an Olympic weight at next years WC and secure a spot in the OTT finals if she medals.  I think she would be better off moving up to 76 KG but we shall see what she decides..

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1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

I will be interested to see if Elor will make the move up or down for the 2023 WTT.  That would allow her to compete in an Olympic weight at next years WC and secure a spot in the OTT finals if she medals.  I think she would be better off moving up to 76 KG but we shall see what she decides..

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see for sure. Everybody knows that the absolute top wrestlers compete at the Olympic weights(especially womens wrestling) and I want to see her compete in one of them.

I do think that she'd have a better shot at 76 than 68.  Adeline is kind of an unknown at this point just because of the amount of work that's needed to have and raise twins, then getting back into elite wresting shape is no easy task.

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