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More men's classes cut for Rio

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Being an Olympic sport is a prestigious thing that is supposed to mean the organization that sponsors the sport is in the good graces of the IOC -- a global elite centered in Europe. If you want to be part of the Olympics, this is the crowd you have to please. I hate to break it to you.

 

A big part of what that crowd wants is money, social status, and power. They are just like everyone else in that respect. In order to maintain their positions, they feel the need to legitimize the elite status by talking about how important universal ideals are to them. Equality is one ideal that is a huge part of their talking points, as it is for elites in all western democracies.

 

What that means in practical terms is that having a sport just for men is not okay. If there are few women competitors in a given sport, the expectation is that the governing organization will develop women's competitors. Somehow, boxing, taekwondo, judo, and weightlifting have managed to stay in the IOC's good graces when it comes to gender equality. I don't see why wrestling should be the only sport that gets a pass on equality.

 

Re John Stossel. John Stossel is a manchild. He has no actual power, has never had actual power, and has no interest in learning how powerful interests actually operate in the real world. He keeps spouting his moral theories that have almost nothing to do with power politics. If you want information about how political processes work, he's the last person you'd want to consult.

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I wanted to agree with some of RED's posts, but honestly didn't have the guts to and I disagreed with the way he went about it. FullNelson said everything that I have been thinking, but he was able to put it into much better words than I could have. Men's wrestling is being destroyed, just like other men's sports were destroyed in our country due to Title 9 years ago, and it's all because of this stupid "politically correct", "let's give everybody a chance" society that we live in today.

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To be clear, I disagree with RED's premise about women's wrestling. I disagree with the move to six weights for each division.

 

RED, while I think your position on women's wrestling is highly irrational and downright stone-age, the rationale suggested about it being a new sport is a valid one, although wrestling internationally lagged behind in regards to wrestling for decades upon decades -- not just globally, but domestically as well. We also don't know how hard FILA (or the factions like Sunkist Kids) lobbied the IOC for women's wrestling's overdue inclusion in the Games. Weights were cut even before women's wrestling was added. Right now, they're an unfortunate scapegoat in all this.

 

If we waited to see a closer gap for the women to be included, we might have been on the chopping block years ago with no female equivalent. Surprised it didn't happen earlier given what we all know/read now.

 

The issue is with the poor leadership we saw internationally from the Ercegan-Martinetti era and the IOC's ability to bully the entire Olympic sporting landscape. Even with the disagreement regarding women's wrestling and your stance on it, it's likely we'd be in this position even if the women still didn't compete.

 

The IOC dropped Olympic weights before the women were on the program. The_Education makes some valid points regarding other combat sports and women's participation. The IOC does what the IOC does, which quite frankly, blows.

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I wanted to agree with some of RED's posts, but honestly didn't have the guts to and I disagreed with the way he went about it. FullNelson said everything that I have been thinking, but he was able to put it into much better words than I could have. Men's wrestling is being destroyed, just like other men's sports were destroyed in our country due to Title 9 years ago, and it's all because of this stupid "politically correct", "let's give everybody a chance" society that we live in today.

 

+1

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Yes they are adding women's weights and taking away men's weights. But it is because FILA allows this and because we accept it and wrestling hasn't done enough to grow. There is equality in track, hoops, soccer, swimming, tennis and so on that isn't being achieved by cutting men's events. You guys want to make this about gender, it is really about horrible leadership at FILA.

 

Wrestling needs better leadership, it needs to grow, it needs to be inclusive, it needs stable and exciting rules. We need to embrace women's wrestling and find ways to work together. There are a lot of people working AGAINST wrestling. Women wrestlers are not among them. Blaming it on the women's wrestling is the easy way out, it is rearranging the proverbial deck chairs on the Titanic.

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people really need to stop blaming the promotion of women's wrestling and women's sports in general and start blaming FILA and the wrestling community's lack of initiative and foresight. for innumerable and varied reasons, the sport of wrestling failed to stay popular and relevant. both in American high schools and colleges and in the eyes of the IOC and the international community. instead of being proactive and dynamic, it resisted change at every opportunity.

 

the way you don't have mens weight classes cut NOW is to have already made equal participation by men and women 20 years ago. the way you don't let title IX be blamed for cutting programs is to be popular enough so as to make the short list of programs ADs want to keep on campus.

 

it's easy to see the moves being made now and blame a concept like "gender equality". unfortunately (or fortunately if we want to be adults and look at things from a larger perspective), the concept of gender equality is never going away. thats good for everyone. i agree with everything OCGRappler is saying above. We have to embrace it and use it as a pillar on which to grow the sport. not whine and complain that circumstances are forcing the sport to do something it should have done voluntarily decades ago.

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equality or equal participation?

 

Those things are very different.

 

Women will never be 1:1 interested in wrestling like men. Just like there will NEVER be as many women fighting in MMA as men. Never.

 

That isn't to say that many women won't love wrestling and the intense one of one style of it but women and men are still very different (in some aspects) and men will always gravitate towards combat sports.

 

I also disagree that wrestling isn't popular or relevant. I believe it is both when your expectations are reasonable. Tons of kids choose to compete in wrestling and love it because it teaches you how to defend yourself without being punched and without hurting anyone.

 

Wrestling has been around for thousands of years. It will not support constant growth forever. Nothing will.

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Part of the problem is that we have two styles of men's wrestling. From an outsider's perspective, which happens to the the IOC's perspective, that is incomprehensible. From the IOC's standpoint, wrestling used to have 14 men's weight classes, and 4 women's weight classes. That means women's weight classes were 22% of the total.

 

How does that stand up to other weight-class-based Olympic sports?

 

* Judo has 7 men's weight classes, and 7 women's weight classes. (50%)

* Taekwondo has 4 men's weight classes, and 4 women's weight classes. (50%)

* Weight lifting has 8 men's weight classes, and 7 women's weight classes. (47%)

* Boxing has 10 men's weight classes, and 3 women's weight classes. (23%)

 

As you can see, until a few days ago, wrestling had the worst gender balance of all weight-class-based Olympic sports.

 

With the recent change, wrestling made it so women's weight classes were 33% of the total. That makes it more equitable than boxing, but it still trails Judo, Taekwondo, and Weight lifting by a significant margin.

 

The IOC offered it's solution to this problem years ago. They said get rid of men's freestyle or Greco. I think it's obvious Greco should have been eliminated.

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I also disagree that wrestling isn't popular or relevant. I believe it is both when your expectations are reasonable. Tons of kids choose to compete in wrestling and love it because it teaches you how to defend yourself without being punched and without hurting anyone.

 

Wrestling has been around for thousands of years. It will not support constant growth forever. Nothing will.

 

sure, everything is popular as long as you are comparing it to something less popular. the fact is, the sport only moves the needle in a few very small markets. there is huge untapped potential for growth. using the thousands of years of history as an excuse doesn't do anyone any favors. wrestling as we know it has been around for about 100 years, and like most sports, only reached something recognizable to what it is today after WWII. wrestling is a tiny sliver of the sports marketplace. we can and should be doing so much better.

 

but to your points, yes, we should not discount the positives. wrestling, as we know it, for all its flaws, has some great fundamental strengths working for it. we should build on them, not use them as justification for allowing things to remain in the unacceptable status quo.

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Part of the problem is that we have two styles of men's wrestling. From an outsider's perspective, which happens to the the IOC's perspective, that is incomprehensible. From the IOC's standpoint, wrestling used to have 14 men's weight classes, and 4 women's weight classes. That means women's weight classes were 22% of the total.

 

How does that stand up to other weight-class-based Olympic sports?

 

* Judo has 7 men's weight classes, and 7 women's weight classes. (50%)

* Taekwondo has 4 men's weight classes, and 4 women's weight classes. (50%)

* Weight lifting has 8 men's weight classes, and 7 women's weight classes. (47%)

* Boxing has 10 men's weight classes, and 3 women's weight classes. (23%)

 

As you can see, until a few days ago, wrestling had the worst gender balance of all weight-class-based Olympic sports.

 

With the recent change, wrestling made it so women's weight classes were 33% of the total. That makes it more equitable than boxing, but it still trails Judo, Taekwondo, and Weight lifting by a significant margin.

 

The IOC offered it's solution to this problem years ago. They said get rid of men's freestyle or Greco. I think it's obvious Greco should have been eliminated.

 

neither style should ever get considered for elimination. the olympics are not even close to worth losing a style.

 

should be all styles all weights or we don't want the olympics.

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neither style should ever get considered for elimination. the olympics are not even close to worth losing a style.

 

should be all styles all weights or we don't want the olympics.

 

i agree that no weights in any style should be cut for the olympcis. in fact, i think they should add weights.

 

however, what if the IOC said FILA could have 8 weights in mens and womens freestyle if they cut greco from the olympic program? would you want FILA to turn it down out of spite? greco would still be around as a style, it just wouldn't be in the olympics.

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Guest Hammerlock3
This is so ridiculous. Why can't we just ditch Greco? Either way this is a disgrace.

 

I just want to point out jersey joe as the absolute essence of the problem. Is there no self awareness anymore.

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neither style should ever get considered for elimination. the olympics are not even close to worth losing a style.

 

should be all styles all weights or we don't want the olympics.

 

i agree that no weights in any style should be cut for the olympcis. in fact, i think they should add weights.

 

however, what if the IOC said FILA could have 8 weights in mens and womens freestyle if they cut greco from the olympic program? would you want FILA to turn it down out of spite? greco would still be around as a style, it just wouldn't be in the olympics.

 

one style in the games with one style out is worse than neither style in games.

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If Greco were to be dropped during Olympic years only, it would be the death knell of this ancient style. Who would want to learn a style with no Olympic possibility? IMO any sport that exists from the original Games should be untouchable, for historical and cultural reasons alone.

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people really need to stop blaming the promotion of women's wrestling and women's sports in general and start blaming FILA and the wrestling community's lack of initiative and foresight. for innumerable and varied reasons, the sport of wrestling failed to stay popular and relevant. both in American high schools and colleges and in the eyes of the IOC and the international community. instead of being proactive and dynamic, it resisted change at every opportunity.

 

the way you don't have mens weight classes cut NOW is to have already made equal participation by men and women 20 years ago. the way you don't let title IX be blamed for cutting programs is to be popular enough so as to make the short list of programs ADs want to keep on campus.

 

it's easy to see the moves being made now and blame a concept like "gender equality". unfortunately (or fortunately if we want to be adults and look at things from a larger perspective), the concept of gender equality is never going away. thats good for everyone. i agree with everything OCGRappler is saying above. We have to embrace it and use it as a pillar on which to grow the sport. not whine and complain that circumstances are forcing the sport to do something it should have done voluntarily decades ago.

 

I agree this this sentiment. Honestly I think Martinetti's hubris alone did major damage for us within the IOC. Our sport let that happen. Instead of dropping/transfering weights, I'm in favor of dropping the number of qualifiers.

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If Greco were to be dropped during Olympic years only, it would be the death knell of this ancient style. Who would want to learn a style with no Olympic possibility? IMO any sport that exists from the original Games should be untouchable, for historical and cultural reasons alone.

 

Greco-Roman wrestling is nothing like Pále, the type of wrestling practiced by the ancient Greeks.

 

Greco-Roman wrestling actually only goes back to the 1800s. A Frenchman named Jean Exbrayat developed the basic rules. He called it "flat-hand wrestling." An Italian wrestler later started calling it Greco-Roman wrestling. http://www.fila-official.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=36

 

Pále allowed holds below the waist, and it also allowed submissions. The object was to score three points. A wrestler could score a point in a few ways: (1) When his opponent touched the ground with his back, hip, or shoulder. (2) When his opponent submitted. (3) When he pushed his opponent out of bounds.

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I think we need to give the IOC am ultimatum, and tell them they can go ahead and give the women two extra weight classes, however, if they still insist in taking weight classes from the men we take ourselves out of the Olympics, and they can deal with the bad press and whatever financial loss Wrestling brings to the table.

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I think we need to give the IOC am ultimatum, and tell them they can go ahead and give the women two extra weight classes, however, if they still insist in taking weight classes from the men we take ourselves out of the Olympics, and they can deal with the bad press and whatever financial loss Wrestling brings to the table.

 

The IOC already removed wrestling as a core sport for the 2020 Olympics. Following the news, journalists and wrestling supporters complained as much as they could. The IOC did not bat an eyelash.

 

I hate to break it to to you, but FILA wants the Olympics, not the other way around. The position FILA is in now is trying to get back into the Olympics. Throwing an ultimatum at the IOC would be the worst strategy possible.

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When is the final ioc decision? fila still should go to full weights for off year. Once the ioc drops wrestling (and they will drop it), is fila going to nut up?

 

 

You must not pay attention to everything that has gone on. Fila has done everything the IOC has asked for, and adding two womens wt classes pretty much was the final thing they could do. Although I don't like it, I think the IOC asked for the addition of 2 womens wt classes and Fila had no choice but to concede.

 

More importantly, Fila is going to pay off the IOC for votes. Thats what its all been about anyway, a big money grab for the IOC.

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