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JohnnyThompsonnum1

Besides Football and Men's basketball that make money

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I was once told and easily believe that Iowa's wrestling program does in fact make money for the school. Not even an eyelash compared to what the football program brings in, but still a profit.

 

It got me to thinking, are there any other wrestling programs or any other college sports teams that aren't football or aren't men's basketball that make money for their school?

 

Is Iowa's wrestling program the only wrestling program that does? (If they even do, maybe I was given inaccurate information)

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Doubtful. You figure 10 scholarships is $300,000. Another $200k for coaches, staff. The facilities, travel, uniforms, recruiting...I bet you are looking at $1 million budget at a lot of schools. No way anyone brings that in unless you include the occasional huge donation. But to the title of your thread, I doubt anyone consistently makes money aside from football and hoops...no shame in that. The point of college isn't to make money. At most schools the English department isn't turning a profit either.

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Doubtful. You figure 10 scholarships is $300,000. Another $200k for coaches, staff. The facilities, travel, uniforms, recruiting...I bet you are looking at $1 million budget at a lot of schools. No way anyone brings that in unless you include the occasional huge donation. But to the title of your thread, I doubt anyone consistently makes money aside from football and hoops...no shame in that. The point of college isn't to make money. At most schools the English department isn't turning a profit either.

 

I agree 100%. Curiosity just got the best of me though and I couldn't help but ask in the case that someone might know.

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From http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

 

Iowa Wrestling

2010 Total Expenses - $1,825,432

2010 Total Revenues - $1,259,383

 

2011 Total Expenses - $1,973,623

2011 Total Revenues - $1,357,038

 

Based on the data available, Iowa wrestling definitely does not make money. For the same years, Iowa football made around $24 million (2010) and $29 million (2011) in profit.

 

It should also be noted that Iowa spends a lot more on wrestling than everyone else. The difference between Iowa and #2 Oklahoma State is in the neighborhood of $500,000 per year, based on the the data available.

 

If someone wants to investigate other schools, feel free to have a go.

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I would like to see what football/basketball programs actually turn a profit. Its been some time ago... but I remember reading an article in the USA Today with the numbers crunched only showing something like 10 or 15 DI programs truly turning a profit.

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I would like to see what football/basketball programs actually turn a profit. Its been some time ago... but I remember reading an article in the USA Today with the numbers crunched only showing something like 10 or 15 DI programs truly turning a profit.

 

That was a poor premise for an article. If I make $25M and spend $20M, does that make me better than if I make $50M and spend $50M? Plus, with no standard accounting procedures, the numbers can be manipulated in all sorts of imaginative ways.

 

For example, Kansas State was shown as having a major profit in one year. That's because they were counting pledged (but not yet donated) funds as already having been received. All smoke and mirrors.

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as i was working on my master's a few years ago i had to write some papers on it. at the time athletic programs that were operating in the black were only doing so because of tv money, not ticket sales and bowl money. the big east had a monster tv deal for basketball and then your power football conferences pulled good money from tv contracts. there were only 20-25 athletic departments that were operating in the black.

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Iowa wrestling has never made a direct profit. However, what gets lost in these discussions are the donations that wrestling contributes to an institiution. Analysis of this can be muddy - Roy Carver and Bill Krauss would have been multi-million dollar supporters of Hawkeye athletics even without wrestling - but each did contribute at least 6 figures (probably 7) directly to wrestling.

 

Two small, private eastern Iowa colleges each have a multi-million dollar alumni donor because each wrestled. Loss/gain of alumni support is a factor rarely considered when a decision to drop or add a sport is being made. Trev Alberts lost over a million dollars in such support when he made his decisions to drop football and wrestling and focus on hoops.

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I'm pretty sure LSU baseball does.

 

http://www.lsusports.net/ViewArticle.db ... =208527960

 

guessing college baseball tickets are $10? i have never paid to go to a college baseball game... even with 4 million in revenue the travel of a baseball team is hard to cover. their coach is making 750k so the true cost of the team is probably not covered.

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I'm pretty sure LSU baseball does.

 

http://www.lsusports.net/ViewArticle.db ... =208527960

 

guessing college baseball tickets are $10? i have never paid to go to a college baseball game... even with 4 million in revenue the travel of a baseball team is hard to cover. their coach is making 750k so the true cost of the team is probably not covered.

Individual bleacher tickets are $10. Grandstand $15. Season tickets require a Tradition Fund donation ranging from $50 to $2000. Baseball makes money there. They had nearly five football sell outs worth of fans. No where near the same ticket price but also no where near football's cost, # of players, equipment, stadium staff/infrastructure, # of coaches, staff, slush fund :shock: , etc.

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I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised that the Cael era PSU wouldn't be a money maker. Cornell too?

 

No way. The only significant revenue is tickets. Last season a season ticket at PSU was $42 and with capacity of 7K or so that's only $284K and it's less than that as students get in free (I think it's free). I guarantee that between coaches/trainers salaries, travel expenses, scholarship the expenses are well over $1M.

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The comment on the accounting is accurate.

 

For instance, I remember Oklahoma showing a loss of like a million dollars and Lock Haven turning a profit of like $500.

 

What really was happening is that Lock Haven considered athletics an entity that was paid by the university so all of the university funds given to wrestling were counted as wrestling revenue and they didn't spend all their money for the surplus was a profit. On the other side, Oklahoma considered all of the wrestling expenses as only a loss and had all revenues go to the university who ultimately covered all losses.

 

Every athletic department and university is structured differently so it is hard to actually know the real numbers. The university of Georgia, for instance, has athletics as a completely different entity than the university.

 

 

Due to these differences in accounting, I have learned to only look at expenses. Though we can't know for sure if it is the university, boosters, or ticket sales, the expenses line is the best indicator of a commitment to a program.

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Here is some data from the Big Ten for 2011. You can see by the vastly different revenue numbers that they each are tracking things differently, but I would suggest that it's fairly obvious none of these teams are generating more revenue than they spend. Yes, many programs bring in some significant donations, but that's not really the same as revenue or turning a profit in my mind.

 

Big_Ten_Expenses.jpg

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Yes, it's very difficult to compare with disparate systems. One thing I'd like to repeat is that the purpose of college athletics is NOT to generate income. The rise of FB/BB popularity, the ease of providing large audiences live and engaging attendance, and especially the rise of TV actively engaged in profiting off that popularity has enabled huge increases in revenue available to the athletic departments. That enables the schools to offer far more without footing 100% of the bill. That doesn't mean that all sports can or should be income producers. Until the publics interest changes only FB, BB, and a few scattered sports in specific regions should expect to even break even.

 

Does a program count scholarships if they are endowed? I believe Texas FB is close to, if not having achieved endowing all their scholarships. Endowed coaching positions? Stanford head BB, head FB, FB OC and DC positions are endowed. Dr Dale Thomas said over three decades ago that wrestling needed to self endow to survive. It's not about generating income. It is about reducing/eliminating as much cost as possible. If fully endowed then any revenue is an add for the athletic dept.

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Another reason it is hard to quantity is the money it brings to academics. I read a study a few years that looked at the success of sports at UNC and how it correlated to donations. While donations to the athletic department increased with great seasons the increase in academic giving was so much greater for those years the athletic program had success.

 

It is possible that when Penn State calls alumni for donations they think of the wrestling success and are more likely to give to academics even though it wouldn't be counted toward athletics.

 

I was told of one small liberal arts D1 school who has a non-scholarship football program. Their football program is the largest source of academic donations for the school as their alumni have been very generous. Cutting the football program to save a million would cost the school 5 million.

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Here is some data from the Big Ten for 2011. You can see by the vastly different revenue numbers that they each are tracking things differently, but I would suggest that it's fairly obvious none of these teams are generating more revenue than they spend. Yes, many programs bring in some significant donations, but that's not really the same as revenue or turning a profit in my mind.

 

Big_Ten_Expenses.jpg

 

 

Thanks for posting. Without looking at any real numbers, I found it hard to believe PSU was turning a profit with their home matches in Rec Hall. In Bryce Jordan they would have a shot.

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Here is some data from the Big Ten for 2011. You can see by the vastly different revenue numbers that they each are tracking things differently, but I would suggest that it's fairly obvious none of these teams are generating more revenue than they spend. Yes, many programs bring in some significant donations, but that's not really the same as revenue or turning a profit in my mind.

 

Big_Ten_Expenses.jpg

 

 

Thanks for posting. Without looking at any real numbers, I found it hard to believe PSU was turning a profit with their home matches in Rec Hall. In Bryce Jordan they would have a shot.

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