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RetiredPoster

Iran vs Israel situation in the Semis of the JR Worlds

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I think it is a stupid thing to do, and the result of a horrific mentality, but Iran is entitled to forfeit whatever matches it wants. This is not about anti-semitism (a silly term in this sense because Iranians are semitic peoples).

 

I assume its been mentioned...the country most of us are from made all its athletes forfeit every round of every event at the olympics in recent history.

Just for the record Iranians are not Semitic, they are Indo-European. Arabs (and their ancient counterparts Assyrians, Babylonians, Akkadians, Phoenicans, Canaanites) and Hebrews (I did not say Jews since in the strict sense Judaism is a religion not an ethnicity) are Semitic.

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Thankyou to the gentlemen in this thread that used logic and reason, not ignorance like some posts in this thread, good to see logical responses, as for the situation it just makes me sad for the wrestler who could have won gold, coming from nothing in life working hard every day sacrificing much, in Iran parents often deter their kids from wrestling to either work or go to school, lower classes want their kids to work, higher classes look down on wrestling as a peasant sport, so for young iranian wrestlers to make it as a senior they have to medal at these competitions for funding and support, and they took it from this kid.

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Freewrestler are you stating that the wrestler that forfeited to Bernstein was an Iranian Jew?

 

Most Iranian Jews who could have fled, have fled Iran and live elsewhere with populations

on Long Island and in Los Angeles to name a few. Most fled from Iran giving up their homes and their business and possibly land to escape.

 

Israel is a Jewish state that the Iranians want destroyed. I never used anti-semitism. I stated the Iranians

in Iran hate Jews.

 

Really? Just read what you wrote back to yourself very slowly and think about it......

 

Btw, when was the last time you were in Iran to speak to ALL IRANIANS???

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Thankyou to the gentlemen in this thread that used logic and reason, not ignorance like some posts in this thread, good to see logical responses, as for the situation it just makes me sad for the wrestler who could have won gold, coming from nothing in life working hard every day sacrificing much, in Iran parents often deter their kids from wrestling to either work or go to school, lower classes want their kids to work, higher classes look down on wrestling as a peasant sport, so for young iranian wrestlers to make it as a senior they have to medal at these competitions for funding and support, and they took it from this kid.

 

 

Good Post

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Just to be clear the Iranian Government's stance against the Israeli Government is one of politics and ideology (in this case Zionism). It is not religiously motivated. As another poster pointed out, Jews in addition to Christians and Zoroastrians have permanent seats in parliament. An Iranian Jew could compete for Iran if he/she should choose to do so. Conversely if a Israeli athlete was for example was black, white, yellow, green, or purple the Iranian athlete would not be about to compete against him or her. If the Israeli athlete is Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Hindu the Iranian athlete could not complete. All that matters is this athlete is representing Israel which is a country that Iran refuses to recognize (officially anyways). I am not defending Iran's position merely stating the facts. I am not naïve enough to believe that no Iranians whether in politics or not do not have prejudice against Jews (speaking of religion now) I just want to be clear on the official reason the Iranian athletes cannot compete against Israeli athlete.

 

We need to be sure to differentiate between a) nationality, b) ethnicity, and c) religion.

 

Example Iranian Jew: nationality - Iranian, ethnicity - Hebrew (assuming they were not converts at anytime and just part of Iran's ancient Jewish community that has been there since Babylonian times), religion - Judaism

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I believe the short, short version is this: Many Arab nations opposed the formation of Israel as a nation and have protested the existence of, what some dub, the Zionist state. It doesn't have as much to do with being Jewish as it does the breakup of Palestine and formation of Israel.

 

I could be way off, but that's the way I understand it to be.

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Lets call it like it is. The Iranians are prejudiced and Hate Jewish people.

 

Plain and simple.

 

So an Iranian Jew hates himself?

 

Your ignorance and lack of knowledge is astounding. They do not hate jews, they do not like the Israeli government for the atrocities they commit on the Palestinians, plain and simple.

However their stance forcing wrestlers to forfeit is terrible, the Iranian government is a place full of morons, whom were put into power by the British and Americans, we're not here to discuss politics lets keep it to the wrestling, I hope you know more about that than international relations.

Factually false, unless you're referring to the 1953 revolution. Since then, there's been another revolution, in 1979 (you may have heard about the Shah being overthrown), that put the current structure in place. We have not had international relations with Iran since, and would be quite happy to see their current group be overthrown tomorrow, because there cannot possibly be a system more predisposed to hate us than the current one.

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I believe the short, short version is this: Many Arab nations opposed the formation of Israel as a nation and have protested the existence of, what some dub, the Zionist state. It doesn't have as much to do with being Jewish as it does the breakup of Palestine and formation of Israel.

 

I could be way off, but that's the way I understand it to be.

 

Not too far off but a fundamental reason for the animosity goes back to biblical times and the descendant of Arbraham; Issac if Jewish and Ishmael if Muslim. Both believe that the Palestine land is theirs and they have the right to it as they interpret the bible.

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Lots of half truths and incomplete information in this thread.

 

First thing to point out is the Iranian people and government must be separated. In fact, Iranian Jews lived quite well in Iran well after Israel's creation. Iran and Israel had lots of trade and cooperation until the revolution in 1979. There is even brief footage on youtube of Iran and Israel playing a soccer game against each other in the 1968 Asian Cup.

 

 

My grandfather and Uncle (Israelis) even connected in the Tehran airport on the way back to Israel from the far east where my grandfather worked at the time. My Uncle still talks about the huge crates of pistachios and other dried fruits he saw in the airport.

 

Only when the fanatical leadership took over in 1979, did Iranians start pretending to care so much about the Palestinians and human rights issues in the Middle East.

 

To the posters who point out that minorities have a permanent place in parliament, and therefore they can't possibly have anything against Jews and other minorities, they are sorely mistaken. The people representing these groups in parliament are basically forced to say what the ayatollahs want to hear. In fact, many times, the Jewish representative is forced to make comments denouncing Israel and the West. If you ask any Iraninan Jew in the US, they will tell you the whole system there is a farce, and the permanent representative for the Jews, Zorastrians or any other minority group is just a sham so the government can say all Iranians have the same rights and privaleges. The fact is, as long as minorities keep their mouths shut and don't cause trouble they will be left alone. However, they are not treated like the majority of Iranians. They are tolerated.

 

It's very easy to say Iran will wrestle Jews from other countries, and they won't wrestle non-Jews from Israel, so this is 100% political and nothing to do with Jews. That is complete and utter nonsense.

 

The fact is, when the ayatollahs came into power, they could not accept a Jewish state in the middle of the muslim world because they believe Jews and any other non-Muslims are less than Muslims. They would not recognize Israel on any level. Doing so would show they recognize Israel's existence as a Jewish state.

 

If Iran's stance against Israel was about land and the Palestinians, there are so many other examples of countries they should be boycotting. What about China and Tibet, or Russia and the Chechniyans?

 

Let's make one thing clear, Iran's stance has everything to do with Israel being a Jewish state.

 

I for one have a great deal of respect for the Iranian people, and would love to visit there one day. You guys are the best wrestling fans in the world. But to argue that there stance on Israel has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state defies logic, ignores history and insults everyone's intelligence.

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Bucky,

 

That's mostly true, except Iran's world and Olympic champion Sourian wrestled American Jew and multiple times Maccabiah Games winner Lindsey Durlacher more than once. I'm sure they have Google in Iran and would have been able to find out pretty quickly Durlacher was Jewish. If the guy who Iran forfeited to at Juniors had been competing for any other country there wouldn't have been a forfeit. Other than that you're pretty much dead on. The radical policies are fairly new, prior to 79 Iran and Israel were pretty close.

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I think it's irrelevant whether Sourian wrestled Durlacher. The US didn't form a Jewish state in the middle of the Muslim world, Israel did. That is the issue Iran has.

 

I don't buy the argument that Iran wrestling Jews from other countries shows that Israel being a Jewish state is not the issue.

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Before 1948 there were approximately 150,000 Jews Living In Iran.

 

There are less than 10,000 now. For those that remain life is a struggle in Iran. You will not get employment

outside your own community.

 

Anti Zionism is the same as Hating Jews.

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The whole situation does suck, but it's better that he forfeit, take the fine, instead of going home and really having problems....Like being executed or imprisoned....They where hit with $20,000 USD fine and the Iranian wrestler was DQ'd....It actually happened earlier in the Greco tournament, as well.

 

It just makes wrestling look bad to the IOC.....

 

No it doesn't.

It's not a wrestling issue.

It's an Iran and Israel issue.

If these forfeits were more widespread between other countries then maybe we should be concerned on how it will effect the the movement to save olympic wrestling.

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Anti Zionism is the same as Hating Jews.

 

Not sure if serious...

As for someone mentioning America and British having no involvement in the latter revolution, they did, they froze billions in resources and money, which has never been payed back, not the 53 coupe where the CIA were involved nationalizing the oil, but i'd rather not talk about that and talk about the current situation.

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Anti Zionism is the same as Hating Jews.

 

Not sure if serious...

As for someone mentioning America and British having no involvement in the latter revolution, they did, they froze billions in resources and money, which has never been payed back, not the 53 coupe where the CIA were involved nationalizing the oil, but i'd rather not talk about that and talk about the current situation.

 

The coup with Mossadegh had more to do with the fact he was cozying up to Russia/communists at the time. The US and Britain weren't about to let Uncle Ivan get their hands on that oil. They had to forcibly re-install the Shah who from what I understand really didn't want to come back either, so they had him abdicate in favor of his son Reza Mohammed. The coup still has nothing to do with hating Israel, but it does make sense Iranians would hold a grudge over some of the western countries for making that happen. It's highly possible that Mossadegh would have been friendly towards Israel since he wasn't much for the clerics and was more about letting Iran chart their own course rather than a bunch of foreigners do it for them. Still other than political opponents being disappeared the Shah wasn't that bad. The major reason the clerics didn't like him was because they perceieved him as basically pissing on thousands of years of Iranian culture with his "white revolution". So if you really want to blame somebody for Iran being stuck in the 14th century blame Khomeini. The one thing that hasn't changed much is Iran's elite status in wrestling.

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Iranians do not hate Jews. Very ignorant comment and also arrogant to assume you know the world view of an entire people living in another country you have zero experience with. If Iranians hate anyone, it's Arabs (and to a lesser extent Turks), not Jews. I don't condone that either, just giving y'all some real insight on the matter.

 

Iran's stance on Israel has everything to do with projecting power in the middle east. Their stance and rhetoric is a means to gain influence and to appear more credible than it's enemy/rival (saudi arabia). It's also to defy US hegemony in the region. Israel and the US aren't viewed as separate entities to the Iranian government. I'll stop myself right there but that's just the basics.

 

With regards to the wrestler, don't blame the wrestler. It's not his decision in the least. Iran isn't America and when you defy the government very bad things happen to you.

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